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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 1249
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2020 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jeff, Not many people can access this old site anymore. The standing seam is covered with something so I can't get a clear picture of how it is put together. You need some type of nailer at the top to secure the ridges, and ideally, it would also include a cover/closure for the standing seam roof. You can put a "Z" strip onto the standing seam, and then lock a custom bent flashing onto that and over the ridge. You could make that the ridge for the slate too, or you can drop it down a bit and make it go beneath the slates and let them be the finisher. Let me know if you have any questions. the best way is to post pictures (hard to do on this site), or give me a call 269-806-1266 Good luck! John crookston Old School
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Jafi (Jafi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jafi

Post Number: 33
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2020 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still can't find the new conversation button? Can anyone answer the question I posted on December 5th about the ridge?
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Jafi (Jafi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jafi

Post Number: 32
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The other sidestar
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Jafi (Jafi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jafi

Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thought I would add a couple of photos of some earlier work I did with the help of some of the users.Heart
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Jafi (Jafi)
Member
Username: Jafi

Post Number: 30
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can't find the new thread button, so I'm adding this to an old thread of mine. Looking for advice on what to do with this ridge. One side is slate and the other is standing seam roof that is wrapped over the ridge. The saddle ridge slates are ten inches long with a 2 inch side lap (8 inch exposure). In a few cases the nails are exposed due to the two inch overlap. Should I redo the ridge with more overlap, or put on a ridge cap? Also, note the slates near the rake are not laying flat.roof ridge
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 189
Registered: 04-2007


Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2015 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David Zimmerli:

My recommendations are best practices. Period. It's not a one-size-fits-all type of scenario. People can do whatever they want, as you've seen on YouTube.

In the first video, Joe uses lead wool to hold the flashing in place and then says that, depending on the thickness of the joint, one might caulk or point it in. Not both. This joint is shallow and he's used a continuous feed of lead wool to fill a gap that otherwise might be filled with lead wedges and mortar, THEN caulked.

The second video I will not respond to. This jerk cut a joint through the masonry units to shove his counter-flashing into. I reject this "source" and warn you that simply watching YouTube videos is a poor substitute for real experience.
Ward Hamilton
MSc Historic Preservation

OLDE MOHAWK HISTORIC PRESERVATION INC
877.622.8973 online at OldeMohawk.com
Slate Roofing | Masonry | Restoration
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Lv_pa (Lv_pa)
Senior Member
Username: Lv_pa

Post Number: 57
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One source is a few inches down your screen, in Joe's post on March 19, 2013 - 10:12 pm:

http://youtu.be/lUvicANjJYk

Here's another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGMyEPHIdEI
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 188
Registered: 04-2007


Posted on Monday, May 04, 2015 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David Zimmerli:

I was making recommendations that are consistent with industry-accepted best practices. Is the counter-flashing material copper or sheet lead? How wide is the joint they're tucked into? How does the lime and/or portland cement react with copper vs lead? How wide/deep should pointed joints be? Will they dry out too quickly before curing properly? Should I use backer rod before caulking? Does the use of mastic sealant between differential materials (sheet metal and masonry) improve performance?

I don't call myself an expert but I've got demonstrable experience in this specific area. If you're going to ask me if my recommended approach to treatment is really necessary and reference things you've seen on the internet perhaps you could cite your source(s). I'm always willing and eager to learn new things. Thanks.
Ward Hamilton

OLDE MOHAWK HISTORIC PRESERVATION INC
877.622.8973 online at OldeMohawk.com
Slate Roofing | Masonry | Restoration
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Lv_pa (Lv_pa)
Senior Member
Username: Lv_pa

Post Number: 56
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Olde Mohawk-- re: your posts at March 15, 2013 - 06:02 pm and March 12, 2013 - 07:56 pm--

Do you really need lead reglets *and* mortar *and* caulk at the brick joints to hold the cap flashings in place?

Other sources I've seen say to use mortar for wider joints or caulk for narrower ones, but not both.
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Jafi (Jafi)
Junior Member
Username: Jafi

Post Number: 20
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2013 - 10:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe, I had purchased some of the lead wool for this project. Unfortunately the roofer I hired was trying to get his check as fast as he could. I plan to redo the flashing similar to how Chris Verrone shows in You Tube video. It looks real nice and looks like it will be leak free for years.
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Joe (Joe)
Moderator
Username: Joe

Post Number: 768
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2013 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FYI: We have been selling lead wool for maybe six months now (since summer of 2012) at SlateRoofWarehouse.com. It's used to wedge flashing into mortar joints (among other things). Here's the direct link: http://josephjenkins.com/store/lead_wool.html.

Here's a short video: http://youtu.be/lUvicANjJYk
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 184
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you're going to comment, give good advice to the people who ask questions here. The work is done incorrectly. Period. Steel nails used to secure a continuous, stepped copper counter-flashing in the empty joints is WRONG. The raggles of the reglet detail should NOT be empty, as they are here. And they souldn't be filled with clear silicone, either. Garbage work, end of story.
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
Senior Member
Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 257
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 04:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

sloppy, and questionable methods.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
Intermediate Member
Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 01:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't like this flashing. not safe enough for me. Too easy for water to come in the side of the steps, improper fastening. That said I have seen much worse.

The blue green is most likely caused by acetic acid. Acetic acid is an ingredient in many sealants. When a thick layer of sealant is applied often the outside layer will cure and trap a liquid pocket. If this pocket contains acid it will interact with the copper. If this acid is surrounding electrically incompatible materials this interaction will be sped up. Technically it becomes a battery. The eventual iron oxide runoff will discolor and burn the copper shortening its service life. Seeing exposed iron fastener on a copper roof makes me wonder if iron nails were used for panel installation?
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Andrew (Andrew)
New member
Username: Andrew

Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2013
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2013 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If he told you that you must use nails, then he clearly doesn't know how to flash a chimney correctly. Even worse lying to you and telling you they won't rust if you caulk them......well the evidence is right there in the picture. And guess where water is coming through when the caulk wears out? I'd get him off your roof asap.
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 965
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2013 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he have clear silicone on the reglet joints in the brick? It almost looks like it, but if he does, he didn't use much. Perhaps the same time he sealed over the nails he caulked that. It is not the way I would have done it, but it is a fairly neat job at least the part he did.

Steel nails don't necessarily react badly with copper, and nothing like aluminum would have. A lead drive anchor would have been a better option doing it the way he did, but then again...We didn't do the job. What did his contract say he was going to do? Does it leak?
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 183
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2013 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What you are seeing is the differential materials (steel nails and copper sheet metal) having a galvanic reaction right before your eyes. In short time these fasteners will fail. Worse, rain water run off will contact these fasteners and carry the electrolytes over the copper sheet metal below and holes will burn through. If fasteners need to be used in this flashing assembly they should be brass rivets. The masonry joints where the counter-flashing is inserted should be snugged with lead wedges, pointed in, raked back, and caulked as described in my earlier post. Big problems coming as is.
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Jafi (Jafi)
Junior Member
Username: Jafi

Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 14, 2013 - 09:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He told me you must use nails, and that you will not have corrosion if you caulk it. I will post a picture of where it wraps around the corner. To me it just looks like a ball of sheet metal?
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 962
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 14, 2013 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this guy claim that he is done with the job now? No caulk in the joints yet. That is a minimum.
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Andrew (Andrew)
New member
Username: Andrew

Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2013
Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2013 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

why didn't he just use a wedge? I have never once had to use a nail to hold counter flashing in.
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Jafi (Jafi)
Junior Member
Username: Jafi

Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Added picture. Nails were used and already rusting after one night. Also, blue green looks like the copper is reacting with the nails.

Picture
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 182
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jafi ... whether the counter-flashing is one piece or several stepped pieces, it should be cut into the wall in a reglet detail. If stepped, the pieces can be cut into mortar joints without affecting the brick. A one piece strip will require a cut into the masonry sidewall called a raggle. The cut must pass through the brick and, for that reason, is less ideal than a stepped flashing. Regardless, the counter-flashing should look like an upside down "L" bend with the short end hemmed. This is tapped into the raggle and held in place with lead wedges. The joint should then be pointed in with an appropriate strength mortar and raked back. Foam backer rod is inserted and the joint is then caulked with a mastic sealant. Sound like an involved process? It is. And when steps are skipped or done incorrectly this type of flashing assembly will fail.
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 960
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 07:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What he did will work as Benjamin said. All that the piece on the wall is for is to keep the water from running behind the copper roof installation. It is called a "counter-flashing" and it can be made in one piece or many. One piece works because there is nothing in the way of laps or seams to wick the water. One single piece or many pieces do the same thing. As far as the "nails" go, I would think that he used an expansion anchor instead of nails, though concrete nails will also hold the counter-flashing in place. On most expansion anchors, you drill a 1/4" hole and insert the anchor then you drive the stainless steel pin in and it expands to hold the piece in place. The top of the flashing should be caulked to keep the water from running behind.

If it is just caulked, it is better if the top is hemmed and the top 3/8" is kicked out at a 45 degree angle to give somewhere for the caulk to set. You can also cut a kerf into the wall and slide the flashing into the kerf. It is more difficult that way, and you still rely on the caulk to seal it. both work!
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
Intermediate Member
Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 37
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is possible to make a one piece counter flashing. It sounds to me like this one is not effective. This being said, I would have to see it or have a more technical description. Can you post a pic?
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Jafi (Jafi)
Junior Member
Username: Jafi

Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Monday, March 11, 2013 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Having a flat lock copper roof on porch installed. The roofer installed the pans and ran the ends about 3" up the brick wall. To counter flash he cut a single piece of copper in a step pattern and nailed it to the wall. I would like to know is this the correct way to do it? In the Slate Roof Bible each step is a separate piece of copper that overlaps the lower piece. Also, won't the steel nail cause corrosion?

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