|Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 10:43 am: ||
Hi. I just bought a big 'ole house built in 1924 and it's got a slate roof. The roof was leaking around the chimneys and I got that fixed OK.
The question I have is what the contractor is going to do next. He's going to put in a ridge vent and soffit vents. He says I need it because we're having all the original windows replaced (Renewal by Anderson) and so we need to better vent the moisture. The problem I see with his solution is that we're having the attic finished off, and so we're going to vent through baffles under insulation in the rafters. The roofer knows this....
My problem is, if the roofer is right about the moisture, how the hell can the moisture get out? Seems like I would need some king of attic fan anyway.
Anne B. Horton
|Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 05:58 am: ||
Is there a software tool that allows you to produce a slate schematic?
Thank you very much for your reply!!
|Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 05:13 pm: ||
Quite by chance, I came across this website (which is the *best* btw!).
I decided to peruse the message board and came across an old posting, dated January 21st, 2004 which mentioned www.slatesavers.com ... this caught my eye as I *work* at SlateSavers!
Well naturally, I feel compelled to address a few issues...first and foremost, this system is NOT a coating or a sealant, which I've learned never works. It is a grout which is injected between the slates to adhere each slate to it's 6 adjoining neighbors. There is a thin film residue ( the pics on the site show an early *test* version and really should be replaced ), which is purposely designed to break down under the sun's rays and disintegrate away within a year or so, leaving only the beauty of the original slate.
The grout which provides longevity to the system (that which is under the slates and not exposed
to the sun's harmful UV rays ) has been formulated to resist break down while retaining it's breathability and elasticity for decades, thus extending the life of the roof for far longer than conventional repairs that involve coatings/sealants.
Next issue: *useless product*? I guess it is useless to the consumer looking for a quick,
cheap fix in order to sell a home. It may be useless to the roofer who makes a living installing new asphalt shingles. But to the historic home owner, It is a very cost effective way to repair, restore, preserve and protect that natural slate roof which is nearing the end of it's life cycle. The cost of this complete system, while in fact, is more expensive than replacing with asphalt shingles, is far less expensive ( 50% or more! ) than replacing with a new slate roof.
Last issue: Slateworks asks, "what is reverse condensation?"
In short, it is a summer time condition where humidity reaches dewpoint in the shady portions of the roof allowing for condensation, resulting in deterioration.
Please call us, write us, e-mail, pony express or morse code us your questions! Better still, meet with the developer of this system, Stan Ward, personally. We *want* to address your concerns! It can be a great disservice to the members of this board to make statements without doing some research first. I'm sure no one here intends to pass along bad information...it just happens sometimes. Luckily, chance drew me to this old message archive and perhaps, maybe, one of you good folks may actually take the time to learn more about us. Thank you so much for allowing me the opportunity to set the record straight.
|Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 08:27 pm: ||
Hi Cheri, You may have a useful product, But from the pictures that were used to advertise your product,I would not advise anyone to use your product especially at 50% of the cost of a new slate roof,The images did not add anything to the natural beauty of a slate roof ,plus it looked like a water dam nightmare..Do you take the time to repair or replace any of the flashings that may be failing? Do you replace missing and cracked slate? Has your product been on a slate roof for decades? If you are applying this product to slate roofs that are in good condition and the problem is rusting nail heads that cause slate to slip out of place,one would be better off to remove the slate and re-install it with copper or stainless nails,plus the roof would recieve a new underlayment and new flashing as needed.Sorry but it seems to me to be a quick expensive fix. I guess I would have to see a roof that has been grouted to form a better opinion,you could post some better pictures..
|Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 08:33 pm: ||
Your kidding right? This is got to be the craziest solution to slate roof problems as i've ever heard off, a grout? Sounds to me like nothing more than silaconing or caulking the seams, I think you'd obtain the same objective, a mess that you will have to deal with later. I've got a couple quotes for you from a man named John Ruskin (1819-1900) THERE IS HARDLY ANYTHING IN THE WORLD THAT SOME MAN CANNOT MAKE A LITTLE WORSE AND SELL A LITTLE CHEAPER, AND THE PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER PRICE ONLY ARE THIS MAN'S LAWFUL PREY.
One more by the same man, which by the way are printed on the back side of my buisness cards IF YOU DEAL WITH THE LOWEST BIDDER, IT IS WELL TO ADD SOMETHING FOR THE RISK YOU RUN AND IF YOU DO THAT YOU WILL HAVE ENOUGH TO PAY FOR SOMETHING BETTER. Fix slate the only permenant way there is, to remove the bad ones and replace them, same things with flashing problems. Don't use band-aids THEY FALL OFF! Slate On!
John T. Bowers
|Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 10:34 pm: ||
Prompted by your post, I visited your website, to see about all this fuss. You see, I am in the process of purchasing a house built circa 1926, which has a slate roof and desperately needs work.
I have also just read the SRB, and concur with Mr. Jenkins on his philosophy and methods.
So forgive me if I offend, but if this forum is a useful forum, it is only to the extent that well-minded, intelligent people post their ideas in a meaningful manner.
I have two issues with your post:
1) You state that the "Slate Saver Grout" is not a coating / sealant, but a grout that is injected between slates.
This is wrong. If on-line product literature is in any way accurate, the product is a polymer, an acrylic polymer to be exact. Grout is composed of various mineral ingredients - cement, lime, gypsum, silica, etc.
Stan Ward uses the term "grout" rather loosely. An open minded person could understand using the term "grouting" to describe the application process, but to call the product grout is a misnomer. The only mineral product in Slate Saver Grout is pulverized slate.
Acrylic polymers are formed from a petroleum base; as such, they are composed of hydro-carbon chains. They are currently used in a wide number of applications, from paints, to pressure sensitive tapes, to bathtubs, to simulated glass panels. Typically, the acrylic resin / compound / powder is maintained in a "liquid" state, in either a water borne emulsion (e.g. acrylic latex paint), or through the use of various solvents (e.g. toluene). Acrylics as a class form into relatively hard compounds, once the solvent base is thoroughly evaporated and the molecules chemically bond. Flexibility of acrylic polymers depends largely on other components in the mix, and the percent of acrylic solids used in the formula.
In short, acrylic polymers are plastics. I fail to see the difference between Slate Saver Grout and other sealants, coatings, and adhesives.
2) You promote the idea that Slate Saver Grout is an economical product, a reasonable choice.
This is merely an opinion, one that cannot be well founded. Let me explain why:
In order for products to be economical, their life-cycle cost must be in-line or better than other similarly functioning products on the market. Whether you compare Slate Saver Grout to asphalt, metal, slate, cedar, or tile roofing, there is little basis for discussion. There is no data for comparison.
Although Mr. Ward may have spent years creating this proprietary formula, he does not provide the public with any laboratory testing or real-world data to prove how long the Slate Saver Grout will perform its duty.
When reputable manufacturers create a new product, they typically submit the product to an independent firm, for testing under an approved protocol. As an example, other Slate Saver products are tested under ASTM guidelines - which at least provide a reference point, based on our current understanding of scientific principles. These tests may not provide an entirely accurate picture of the product's usefulness, longevity, or economy, but they do allow a knowledgeable individual to weigh the options.
In short, we cannot discuss the economy of using this product, because we only have the professed cost ($600 / square), but no data on useful life.
As I understand it, Mr. Jenkins established this forum is to assist homeowners, roofers, contractors, etc. with learning about traditional slate roofing methods - whether they are restoring older homes or building new. After studying your product I find little merit in its usefulness. Plastics should have no part in a traditonal roofing vocabulary.
As I said before, I have no wish to offend. You appear to be a loyal and stalwart employee of Mr. Stan Ward. I admire the intent of your writing, but find the substance distressing. If you can provide information which would persuade me otherwise, please do so.
|Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 02:43 am: ||
Hi John, Great post, Could you explain the term "reverse condensation" or is it just a term used for a sales pitch? Thanks , Ron
John T. Bowers
|Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 10:52 pm: ||
I am new to this forum, but very interested in the discussions taking place.
I am not sure what is meant by reverse condensation. ;) Condensation occurs when the surface temperature of a material is below the dewpoint temperature of ambient air. Although related to humidity, it is really a function of temperature. Warm air (e.g. 75 F) has the capability of absorbing quite a bit of water vapor. Cold air (e.g. 40 F) does not. As the air temperature decreases, the saturation level of the air increases rapidly. Once the dewpoint temperature is achieved, the excess moisture must "fall out" or condense.
To my understanding, warm air always moves toward colder air. In heating climates, the condensing surface is located near the exterior of the wall or roof cavity (e.g. sheathing). In cooling climates, the condensing surface is typically found near the interior of the wall or roof cavity (e.g. drywall).
I am sure this is familiar ground for you. So in a rather long-winded way, I believe the term "reverse condensation" (another misnomer) was meant to explain the idea that condensation does not always occur in a single manner or direction. It depends on the season, the ambient temperature / RH, and exposed surface temperatures.
I am nonplussed as to how the Slate Saver Grout relates to condensation on a slate roof, regardless of which surface is considered.
The Oakridge National Laboratory has an excellent website that provides a great deal of information on this topic. If you want a very informative, technical read, I would highly recommend you look at the "Moisture Control Handbook." Although somewhat old, the principles established in the first three chapters are enlightening. Then again, it may put you to sleep.
In any case, you can find it at this link:
Click on the Handbook and Fact Sheets tab.
|Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 11:50 am: ||
I must agree with Mr. Bowers assesment of your "Slate Saver" product.
I paid a visit to the website and as a roofing contractor and consultant I would refer to your product as the exact opposite to it's name.
Nine years is a long time to spend developing a product that has been available in different formats for over thirty years in the the UK and Ireland.
Such products are useful for a poor quality slate where a customer needs to find and extra five years out of their existing roof.
If the slate is of good quality, the products like yours eliminate any potential salvage, they also have been known to cause ireparable damge to the roof timbers.
The reason being most old slate roofs were self ventilating, when the slates are coated with these foreign substances they block all air circulating in the roof space.
I call such systems "Miracle In A Can" they do not help the roof or save the property owner money.
Also they should never be marketed as an alternative to restoring a slate roof because they do the exact opposite.
They have a place in the market, but as I stated above as a temporary repair to a roof with a poor quality slate.
Peter Crawley, M.I.o.R.
|Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 05:45 pm: ||
Good Evening, After reading the replys above I do not need any other pictures from SlateSavers to form a better opinion of the product. Thanks to John,Peter and Slate On! Ron