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Lucerne96 (Lucerne96)
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Username: Lucerne96

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2011
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2011 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The mentality that "new" is always better than "old" has destroyed America.

We live in a world of finite resources. Our inability to understand this will be our downfall.
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Doug Kuehn
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Username: Indiana_slate

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 02:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This thread is about as sad of a story as one can find. Removing a slate roof when the slate isn't the problem? Good grief.
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Kurtis Hord
Senior Member
Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 103
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Laying the slate is the same weather you are using real stone or Davinci. The skill needed is in the sheet metal work. Anybody can align slate on a chalk line, but knowing how to flash properly and build gutters and other roof drainage elements is where the crucial skilled labor is needed. So your argument doesn't hold up. You say you can't keep the slate because there is no skilled labor in the area to restore the sheet metal on the roof. So, how are you going to install quality sheet metal work with the same labor pool on a new job?

You're a programer so you must understand the concept of eliminating noise in a system. Well, the noise in a slate roofing system comes from the sheet metal. The slates themselves are a constant unless there is a hidden leak or missing bib, which is rare and easy to determine from the attic. So you can rule out the slate itself as contributing to water entry. The only thing remaining is the sheet metal.

Now, weather you are restoring this roof, or installing a new one you will have to install all new sheet metal. So you'll need to import skilled labor regardless. I wouldn't trust the average roofing contractor to get the details right, if they can't restore real slate they won't be able to detail fake slate just the same.
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Eric Hanson
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Username: Jeh

Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kurtis, Thanks for the considered response.

If I lived in an area full of skilled slate specialists then I would almsot certainly have opted for repair. Of course, than I might not have some of the issues I have with my roof in the first place. :) I won't bore you with tales of the butchery I've seen on it . . you've probably seen them elsewhere.

I can't argue with you on the large commercial roofing companies. We had a number of repairs done in 2000 through one. The person we spoke to when getting a quote seemed very knowledgeable. He was not one of the people on my roof. That was a lesson learned. We had some additional (small) repairs done in 2003 and then some new issues arose in late 2006. We had a temporary fix applied to the most pressing and began looking for someone to do a complete overhaul of the roof. When it became clear to me that a local slate specialist was not an option (there is one, to my knowledge, local roofer who deals almost exclusively with slate [and who did our 2003 work] . . . and he's not much younger than my house so he may be considering retirement anytime) I began to look into alternate materials. I didn't seriously consider hiring a crew from out of the area simply because of the logistics (now and for repairs in the future) would introduce more uncertainty into the situation than I was willing to take on to keep the slate.

The DaVinci choice seemed the best of the compromise options. While the product doesn't have a long history both certain plastics and the Kynar coating used in it have been in use long enough to give a solid benchmark for outdoor weathering. I was comfortable with the product's structural properties and aesthetics (though I prefer the smaller slates on my roof now [about 400 per square compared to 225 for the DaVinci when doing a staggered install]). A big key for me was the lack of experience needed to get the pieces onto the roof in such a manner that all the pieces would still be there several years later. That let me use contractors I was comfortable with. That was important, because this isn't just a reslating; all of the dormers are being rebuilt from a negative cant to 4/12, the entire roof is being reflashed in copper and a new copper ridge cap is being added, all of the gutters are being removed and the roofs extended 4 inches at the eaves with new moldings (to match the gables) built on the eaves and so on.

I appreciate your position that a slate roof is better than a plastic roof. I agree; and if this house was located near any large city in the Northeast or in any small town east of the Hudson I'd probably have stayed with slate. Where I am, I didn't see slate as an option and went with what I considered the best of the alternatives for this house.
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Peter
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Username: Plaughlin1

Post Number: 25
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is a 150+ sq church that i drive by several times a month, they used a artificial slate product on the roof that looked similar to a Vermont Unfading red, within 6 years the red became a chalky looking soft pink, and multiple pieces are curling up , they just tore off the enter roof and redid it last month, with a different brand of artificial slate, i guess some people never learn.
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Kurtis Hord
Senior Member
Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 99
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Eric, I think your pursuit of a maintenance free roof is the problem. The maintenance cost projected over the total lifespan of a slate roof are less than constant replacements with inferior materials. Considering the value of your roof, in materials, in embodied energy, in labor: it would be very irresponsible to remove it. Even if every square foot of flashing was failing, it is still a small percentage of the total field. To restore all valleys, box gutters and flashing would cost substantially less than a new roof. Once the sheet metal work is completed properly, you have very few other maintenance concerns on a slate roof. True you will have a slipped or cracked tile from time to time but those can be repaired when you have your gutters cleaned out every season.

I guarantee you the thugs who install the rubber slate will not be able to match the craftsmanship of the one you have currently. Big commercial roofing outfits don't make money by taking their time.

Sure, you may get a 50-year period of no maintenance but you could achieve almost the same outcome with far less work and expense. By replacing a lifetime (of the building) roof with a (maybe) 50 year roof you are doing a great disservice to the building and to future owners.

When material companies sell products that are called maintenance free, what they really mean is they are not repairable. Suppose the DaVinci roof last 75 years, and let's just say there's a fire or a tree hits part of the roof and some slates must be replaced. How will the owner find salvaged rubber slates that match the same weathering characteristics of the rubber in place? Will DiVinvi still be producing that same "model" of fake slate in 75 years? The odds are stacked against you. However with a slate roof; your materials are all made by god, and I don't think he's going out of business any time soon.
Any competent slater already has a stock of salvaged stone that could match your roof seamlessly for any repairs.

There is no need to remove the slates to examine the fasteners or the decking. If the slates are one the roof; you can be assured the fasteners and decking are still doing their job. Stick to natural materials. Do the maintenance and the building, and you win in the long run. Throw that roof away and you'll be poorer and have an inferior roof, and the building will be changed forever.

If I were in your area I would write you a proposal that would include a service contract to inspect the roof yearly and clean the gutters. I am confident the restoration of this roof, combined with the yearly cost of the maintenance plan would still be substantially less money than a new roof. Even if you factor in the value of the slate on the salvage market.
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Eric Braymer
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Username: Braymer

Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry Eric, there are many preservation minded people here who feel strongly about traditional building and craftsmanship, including myself. Here is a link to the warantee for everyones reading pleasure,, things get a little sketchy after the first 10 years.. And after the first 90 mph wind episode,, hmm. I am done with this message string - I promise.
I swear, one day the whole world will be covered in asphalt and plastic.

http://www.davinciroofscapes.com/downloads/DavinciWarrantyValidfortheUnitedState sandCanada.pdf
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Eric Hanson
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Username: Jeh

Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If the tiles curl, crack or excessively discolor in the next 20 years than I will concede that my choice worked out poorly; but given the information that I have now (that those outomes are unlikely) and my priorities (a no maintenance roof that looks good) I'd still be hard pressed to call it a poor choice. Even if I am putting slate back on then. :)

I'm not inclined to argue about it, but if you want to convince me that I'm making a bad decision you could point out some definitive information that either the DaVinci slate is likely to fail or that there is a repair technique for my slate roof to make it maintenance free.

The windows were replaced before I bought the house so I can't be blamed for those. :)
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Steve Prendergast
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Username: Spp

Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 02:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree - damn shame. He could have bought any number of McMansions to waste a plastic roof on and instead he took a beautiful old '30s charmer and tore off a perfectly good roof that had many years left in it. Gotta wonder if there were leaded or stained glass windows in the house that met a similar fate.

Could always take off the brick and install aluminum siding next.

<shakes>
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Eric Braymer
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Username: Braymer

Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was just trying to instill some second thoughts into Mr Hanson, in case there was a slight chance he would reconsider. I hate to see a roof like this go but was serious about the curled up plastic wafers that will eventually top this otherwise sweet house.
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Kurtis Hord
Senior Member
Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Damn Braymer, you can down real hard on him.
He really does seem to have more money than sense though. Sounds like he's too stubborn or egotistical to be convinced but at least he's salvaging the thing. Hey is anybody from this board going to make an offer?
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Eric Braymer
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Username: Braymer

Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good luck to you Eric, maybe post some pictures of your roof in about 10-20 years so we can see those plastic chips all curled up and dried out from the sun. If you have any more photos of your house before being ravaged, could you post them here? I saved the first 2 photos for great examples of a custom random width roof and would love to see some more. Another sad turn for a wonderful house.
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Kurtis Hord
Senior Member
Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 97
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2008 - 08:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another irreplaceable roof lost to ignorance. At least you are salvaging. If it took my crew 5 weeks to salvage that roof they'd all be fired.
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Eric Hanson
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Username: Jeh

Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Look UP! Why didn't I think of that? :)

The roof boards are generally fine. With the exception of the center portion of the attic, which is insulated at the roof, the boards are visible from the attic and seem to be in fine shape.

I concede there are likely deficiencies with a roof that the trained (or, at least, practiced) eye can detect with the slate in place much more reliably than I can, but you would have a hard time convincing me that nothing is gained in the diagnostic process by removing the slates (e.g. identifying deteriorating fasteners).

My priority with the roof is to complete it so it should not need attention for the next fifty years. I know with the slate I have that I will occassionally need to replace falling pieces. It seems likely (to me, anyway) that the older the nails are the more likely a slate is going to come loose. Pulling every slate and making sure it was reattached properly seems like a reasonable plan. Pulling the slate and replacing it with synthetic slates also seems like a reasonable plan for getting a fifty year solution. I am not so much concerned with fixing the current problems as limiting what new ones might arise while I live here.

I do like the way slate looks on my roof and I think I'll get at least a 90% solution with synthetic slate on that front. And while I do appreciate good craftsmanship, I am not a stickler for historical correctness.

On the bright side, the slate will be coming off carefully so it should find it's way back onto another roof at some point. Work started today and I'm guessing about five weeks until it's all on the ground. I see there's a board here 'Slate for Sale' that I'll likely make a post in once I have a good idea of how much slate will be recovered.

Thanks again for the information.
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Steve Prendergast
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Username: Spp

Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd do anything possible to keep that roof intact if it meant holding up 7-11's in my spare time for the needed funds.

If you take that roof off, you'll lose a great deal of the original charm that these old faux Tudors offer and the value of the house could take a hit as well.
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Eric Braymer
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Username: Braymer

Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is what qualified slate roof consultants can answer for you. Your idea of taking off the slate to see what condition the roof boards and dormer framing is in is not good at all, makes little sense, try looking UP when in the attic. If you hired a consultant or reputable roofer, They could tell you the condition of all these things in short order. These problems can still be addressed properly without taking off the entire roof. This is a unique roof that a craftsman spent lots of time and effort on and it will last way past your and my lifetime with regular maintenance. The time and thought spent to correctly install a roof with these random widths and butt-ends is respectable. There are so many reputable and skilled roofers and roof consultants right here on this message board (MR. Jenkins is one of them), what a shame to replace this with plastic chips. These ideas must be coming from someone else, either way, they are wrong. I would love a roof like this.
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Eric Hanson
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Username: Jeh

Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ward, I may indeed drop you an email.

I know I'll be looking for suggestions on how to replace the box gutter (pictured, it's close enough to the center portion of the roof that any change will result in a change in water flow down that valley) and probably additional input/help on the copper work.

And, the guess on the DaVinci was low (45 square of the Renaissance with freight and tax came in at 28k). I'm hoping to get the project done for less than twice your guess. :)
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Eric Hanson
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Username: Jeh

Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I appreciate the sentiment of all those that favor keeping the slate. It was certainly my first choice.

I didn't want to simply repair the roof as I really wanted to get the slate off and get have a look at the condition of the entire roof. I know I have rafter ends above one dormer that need to be rebuilt and some mositure issues that need to be diagnosed.

Also, the (five) dormers have a slight cant back toward the roof and I wanted them adjusted to slope away. And I want the replace the Yankee gutter. When you figure that the dormers, box gutter, (three) chimneys,(five) vent pipes, the valleys and (three) porch flashings are all going to be redone a large chunk of the slate is coming up anyway.

I didn't want to replace with new slate (for a few reasons beyond re-using the slate that I have) so it came down to taking the slate I have off, buying enough slate to make up for bad slates, and putting it back on, or putting something else up there. I won't bore anyone with the details of my thought process, but I ended up opting for the plastic roof.

And, by the way, I found the answer to my original question in The Slate Roof Bible (page 217, if I recall correctly) right around the scary stories about bees. I know I have bees.
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Ward Hamilton
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 52
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Eric, we are about 2.5 hours away up I-88 from you. We've done work in NY's Southern Tier in the past ... not far from you in Waverly. I HAVE TO believe that it would be less expensive for us to replace the necessary flashings than for you to (1) remove 45 sq of slate with care, (2) prep 45 sq of roof (including all of the flashings,) (3) purchase 50 sq of DaVinci fake slate [$15k + ?], and, (4) install 45 sq of fake slate [$200/sq min, I guess.]

I'm thinking your price tag is $32k to $37k on the SUPER conservative side ... Replacing your flashings and repairing the roof MAY be significantly less than that.

If you are interested in discussing, call me 781.686.6999 or email ward@wardhamilton.com.
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Joe Jenkins
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Username: Joe

Post Number: 326
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You probably just needed some flashing replacement and standard repairs. Your house will never see a roof of that quality again, once it's removed. What you already have there will outlast a new plastic roof. I looked at a roof very similar to yours in the Chicago area a few years ago. It had minor hail damage, but 3 or 4 contractors told the owner that it had to be completely replaced. The owner liked the look of his roof and suspected that it would never be the same if someone tore it off. He was right. He kept the roof, did the repairs, and still has a beautiful, unique, stone roof.
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Eric Braymer
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Username: Braymer

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 08:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is a beautiful random width roof you have there. What a shame to remove it. The flashing repairs and the few slate repairs that you need could be easilly done by a real proffesional. Maybe you could find one here on this site. There are lots of them checking in all the time. Please ask around and get more informed opinions. This is a great roof that just needs maintenance.
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 267
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 06:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stone to Plastic that to bad.
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Eric Hanson
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Username: Jeh

Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe-

Thanks for the reply. Sliding the slates down the roof hadn't occurred to me as a viable option.

I am going to credit my wife for inventing the term "Vermont slag". Whether she misheard the person who told her, misspoke to me or forgot what was said and improvised may always be a mystery.

As far as the roof goes, no one has said that it needs to come off. We do have some issues with the roof, mostly around some dormers and probably not attributable to the slate at all. We have had some repairs done in the past (we've been here 9 years) but haven't resolved all of the issues.

The decision to replace the roof was rather easy: I want take the slate off, identify all of the issues, fix them, put the roof back on and (hopefully) not worry about it again. I suppose that had I found these forums sooner it's possible I could have headed down a different path, but this approach still seems reasonable to me. The hard part was deciding on what to put back up there.

My wife and I are both fans of the aesthetics of slate and that would have been the preferred route, but for various reasons we were not comfortable enough with any of the roofing companies we were in contact with doing a slate job and we ended up deciding on using a synthetic slate (i.e., plastic) In this case DaVinci.

In a roundabout way, I can credit you with that choice as after reading the Slate Roof Bible a few years ago I decided that neither I nor the people who did the last set of repairs on my roof had any business being up there and, furthermore, without a heckuva lot of research (e.g., visiting past worksites of prospective contractors) I would be ill-qualified to determine who might be capable.

I know I've traded one unkown (the competance of the person on my roof) for another (the future performance of a product that's only been around a few years) but that was the bet I felt more comfortable with.

Thanks again,

Eric
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Joe Jenkins
Senior Member
Username: Joe

Post Number: 325
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 10:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's a shame you have to lose the roof. My guess is that the same people who told you "Vermont slag" also told you the slate had to come off. Both incorrect.

I think it takes less time to remove the slate for salvage than to rip it off without care. When you just rip it off, you have a big mess to cleanup later. When you salvage it, you don't. Taking the slate off one at a time, letting them slide down the roof, collecting them onto roof planks along the eaves, then sending them down whole on a rope and sling, is about the fastest way to take slates off and clean up the site.
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Eric Hanson
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Username: Jeh

Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tried looking into this a bit more today and all I learned was that there is apparently no such thing as Vermont Slag . . . I assume that somewhere in the information chain Slate became Slag. :)

I'll try an upload two pictures here. These are from the north side of the house, the slate on the south face seem to be a bit brighter (perhaps it's just cleaner).

NW viewnw view, zoom
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Eric Hanson
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Username: Jeh

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello-

I am having a slate roof replaced. I was curious if anyone can offer a rough estimate on how long it takes to remove slate for proper salvage compared to simply removing the slate without regard for breakage.

The roof is roughly 45 square of Vermont Slag (I was told), 12/12 slope on a 80 year old two story house.

Thanks much,

Eric

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