| Author | Message | ||
     Bstinelli (Bstinelli) New member Username: Bstinelli Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2009 |
thanks again guys i don't have much experience soldering copper i do have a good bit doing terne #40 tin that is because most of the houses i work on are in the lower budget i'm lucky if i see 20.00 per lf for box gutters truthfully (labor only)i've heard of people soldering them on the ground using 2x4s and tacking them and lifting them say 40' of box gutter setting them and soldering the corners cleating the edge wolla done, but i'm not that brave....thanks again guys i'm slowly adding slate to my roofing and alot of it is learned here or looking at old work on the job....i'm not much of a fan either of asphalt shingles and yea i know alot of it is a scam, but its how i was taught (doing mostly asphalt), but we do try to take pride in doing it....thing is most people now adays think they need to replace their asphalt in 15 years, so in a way its like slate kinda when it looks older they wanna get rid of it making asphalt even more less cost effective....thanks again i'm doing 5" copper K style gutters now seems though didn't rivet the joints just clamped the joints and soldered them seems a little rough to me though, but it did last on this house at least 100 yrs i told the guy to get snow guards, but he doesnt like the way they look, so more than likely he's gonna be replacing his copper gutters again during the next big snow i really don't get people makes you wonder sometimes by the way Joe your snow guards are priced very fair, in pittsburgh people at cassidy pierce want 15 dollars each and their not even the strong ones unreal and allied building doesn't even sell most copper products nor do they stalk slate this year what the hell | ||
| Joe (Joe) Moderator Username: Joe Post Number: 529 Registered: 07-2006 |
Terne coated metal such as terne coated steel or stainless steel should be cleaned with a lacquer thinner to get off the manufacturing oils prior to soldering. Copper doesn't have this issue. We do not brush copper joints prior to forming them. We only brush the exterior of the joints using a brass wire wheel if they have too much oxide built up or when soldering old copper. New copper will solder pretty easily with just flux if it's clean. | ||
| Old_school (Old_school) Senior Member Username: Old_school Post Number: 427 Registered: 01-2009 |
Good to have you here | ||
| Bstinelli (Bstinelli) New member Username: Bstinelli Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2009 |
thanks slate man, i thought it was a little much ...my old boss may he rest in peace died before i learned everything, so some of the stuff i'm still learning either by means like this or talking to others or just doing it on the job...there are few people now adays tinning box gutters everyone likes to cut them off, but it really ruins the look of the house i see houses without overhangs and the fascia board is now a 24" or so freeze board no overhang looks terrible....I hope to learn more about slating ...20 yrs roofing and i never seen so many different ways to slate as i've seen here seems in pittsburgh most of the slating that was done on old houses was just pa black slate, but there is alot of vermont slate in mt lebanon, fox chapel, and sewickley...its a hard trade to really break into (slating that is) i'd like to make the transition seems most of the people with nicer homes wanna stay with original materials problem is there isn't that many people that know how to do it...not saying there isn't, but this year seems there is more work than there is people knowledgable enough to do it.....thanks again | ||
| Slate_man (Slate_man) Senior Member Username: Slate_man Post Number: 583 Registered: 01-2007 |
We mostly us just Laco flux with a brush. We would mostly use the wire brush for fixing old copper or lead coated copper or copper that has sat around. The new copper should be clean enough just to start soldering. You can per tin the copper with lead too. | ||
| Bstinelli (Bstinelli) New member Username: Bstinelli Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2009 |
I know this is an old post, but i'm curious...when you guys do your flat lock do you brush your seams and flux before you pound them down, or do you just flux and brush your seams after their locked closed...some people told me they only do it afterwards, most of my experience soldering was always with terne, and i always washed the area to be soldered with lacquer thinner and locked it than i would flux the seam and start soldering my old boss when we would work with copper which wasn't very often would use steel wool instead of a brush....correct me for any of my misinformation thanks for any replies | ||
| Joe Jenkins Senior Member Username: Joe Post Number: 329 Registered: 07-2006 |
The slate on Silliman College (Yale) is mixed Vermont, graduated. | ||
| Slate Affair Inc. Senior Member Username: Slate_man Post Number: 282 Registered: 01-2007 |
If its black slate, I would think it was North Country Black, Maybe. | ||
| David Zimmerli New member Username: Lv_pa Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2007 |
Speaking of Yale, does anyone know what type of slate they use up there? The last time I was at Yale, I was on the upper floor of Branford College, looking out a roof dormer near the valley, so I got a pretty close view of the slates. They appeared to be real slates, but they had all these grooves running vertically along them, which I'd never seen before. Does anyone know what these are? | ||
| Peter Member Username: Plaughlin1 Post Number: 22 Registered: 03-2007 |
Thanks for the advise, im sure it will work well, Ironic, 5 years ago during the initial home construction we lost this job because our price was "a little to high"...Now they get to pay twice for the roof and have no warranty, i guess you get what you pay for :-/ | ||
| Joe Jenkins Senior Member Username: Joe Post Number: 324 Registered: 07-2006 |
The American Beauty stays heated. So do the propane outfits. We also sell the acetylene torches. We even sell the hand irons and a bench furnace (http://josephjenkins.com/store/home.php?cat=317). Walter's right, though, make sure you state in your contract that you will not be held responsible if the solder joints fail again unless you can tear it all out and start over. It's always a gamble when redoing someone else's lousy work, but it's a lot cheaper for the client than starting over with new metal. We have done it successfully using the techniques I mentioned. The inside of the solder joint should still be clean. When you heat the joint up, the solder melts out of the joint and flux penetrates into it, followed by new solder. The trick is cleaning the crap out of the outside of the joint, as I mentioned, with a grinding tool and brass wheel, fluxing liberally, and using a hot iron. *And* making sure allowances are included, or added, for expansion and contraction. | ||
| Walter Musson Senior Member Username: Walter_musson Post Number: 101 Registered: 07-2006 |
Peter, Get yourself a good acetylene set up with constantly heated iron. I'd be wary of trying to fix prior poor workmanship - your asking to have that albatross around your neck when more problems arise down the road. Start from scratch or have an airtight contract. | ||
| Peter Member Username: Plaughlin1 Post Number: 21 Registered: 03-2007 |
Thanks for the input Joe, I have always used the propane pan & a pair of 10lb irons to do flat lock, does the American Beauty stay hot to continuosly solder, or do you have to wait for it to heat back up after every pan? | ||
| Joe Jenkins Senior Member Username: Joe Post Number: 323 Registered: 07-2006 |
Use a 550 Watt American Beauty soldering iron, or a propane model, not an open-flamed torch (unless you want to burn the house down). Grind the joints with a high-speed grinder (not a cordless drill) and a BRASS wire wheel (*not* a steel one). Use flux liberally - spray it on with a squirt bottle, even as you're soldering, then clean the surface after soldering with either water and baking soda or water and dish soap. It will all be in vain if you don't install expansion joints. You should have them every 30' or so. Below are some photos of nicely done expansion joints at Yale University in New Haven, CT, on a new slate roof. This is lead-coated copper. The flat-lock actually wraps around the edge of the roof - there is no separate drip edge there.  | ||
| Slate Affair Inc. Senior Member Username: Slate_man Post Number: 265 Registered: 01-2007 |
Do as much as you can in a day so that the salt water spray isn't affecting the copper after you have wire brushed the copper. Some kind of wall to stop the spray may be need! Also with fluxing spreed it in to the seam, so that the seam is full, don't do more then 4 to 6 feet. As you solder add more you will see when you need more with how the solder is flowing, (I add about every 4 to 8 inch) make sure to keep the bead going in the seam. You sould be able to use a iron but I may use a torch on this myself. | ||
| Peter Junior Member Username: Plaughlin1 Post Number: 20 Registered: 03-2007 |
One detail i didnt mention is that this home is right on the beach, so they get quit a bit of salt spray on the roof, so i just an not quite sure if i could get solder to bond to the oxidized copper. I agree La-co is good stuff, very agressive,Just about all i use these days. | ||
| Slate Affair Inc. Senior Member Username: Slate_man Post Number: 263 Registered: 01-2007 |
You should be able to install expansion joint (I migth do two of they.). Then two guy need to go around and unsolder all joints and open them up. Take a wire wheel to clean in the joint the best you can. Hammer then down and start soldering. I would use alot of heat to get a good sweat going. I would also think of using La-co flux personally. | ||
| Peter Junior Member Username: Plaughlin1 Post Number: 19 Registered: 03-2007 |
I met with a property manager recently who has a 72' x 25' flat roof covered with 20 oz lead coated copper flat lock panels. The roof is only 4.5 years old and already the solder joints are cracking. From inspecting the roof it became painfully obvious that the roofing contractor did not sweat the joints when soldering or have any expansion joints in the roof. They are asking me to just resolder all the cracked seams, i dont feel comfortable with this because i believe the copper in the lock joint is oxadised by now and the solder won't bond to it... Anyone have any experiance with such a problem?? |
