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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 305
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thumanm: that new assembly is not very sound.

1. lateral seam is prone to fail
2. too much surface area without fasteners will get a wind lift under there and rip the whole assembly up.
3. gutter apron on roof only needs to come up a few inches past the flood line (4-6 is good) after that, you need standing seam panels or something else, not a huge gutter apron.


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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Username: Thumanm

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2014 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is the finished oneFinished
This is the one I need to add and expansion joint to .Expansion Joint needed

How would you design an expansion joint for this design?
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Username: Thumanm

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2014 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Attached is the finalized section of the lower gutter. I need to add an expansion joint to the upper gutter and need help. How would you design an expansion joint for this application. The one to be done is too long and must have an expansion joint. How to do thins?

(Message edited by Thumanm on September 04, 2014)
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Post Number: 15
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2014 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is the finished product.
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Username: Thumanm

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am seeking the manufacturing method of an outlet that is solder in place near the end of the gutter. I think there is a video I have seen but cannot find it now.
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The proposed new design
Remove the steel gutter repair the wood then cover with two layer of 40# felt and top with rosin paper to allow the gutter to “slide” with expansion and contraction. The line with 20oz copper.

Raise the roof line to gutter interface to 8” above the gutter top (currently 0). The make sure the cement shingles overlap the wood shingles by 1.5” minimum. Will this allow the water to drip onto the snow apron and keep the wood dry? If the wood shakes stay dry the wicking effect will be gone and hopefully water will go where it is supposed to be in the gutter not my house.

Construction method of new gutter. Follow existing profile and run up the roof 16” above the gutter top that will be 8” under the tile interface. That means I will need approximately a sheet width of 34”. With a length of 20’ (4’ gable and 16’ rake). I can get 3’ x 10’ sheets or 36” wide X 15’ rolls. I see your site now only carries 16 oz x 24” rolls?

Should I flat seam (perpendicular to rake) 34” wide x 34” long with approximately 7 seams. Similar to what was done originally.
Or flat seam (parallel to rake) using 8’ long sheets resulting in 3 seams?
Or overlap riveted seam using 8’ long sheets resulting in 3 seams?
The latter two are what I see in your expansion joint video which also states expansion joints every 17’ to 20’ then I see 30’ for this gutter design how long can I go?
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Post Number: 7
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Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The gutter width is approximatley 17" and length 20' (16' along rake and 4' along gable). The depth at the proper deep end is 5". The gutter is a V shape going from nearly flat to 5" deep at a constant pitch. At the down spout (properly located not as the picture shows) this 5" deep section forms a box around 3" wide to accomondate the flange of the down tube. Gutter along rake
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The existing gutter if flat seamed on 16" center. It goes under the wooden shakes 8" I want to rais the finished edge 8" and remove the wood shakes 10" creating a 2" concrete tile overlap and the copper will go under the wooden shakes 6". Is this enough to keep my house and soffeit dry?Gutterline
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Picture showing the railed rake end. I will install a no cant drip edge the set the gutter over that with a overlap. Do I need to secure? Can high wind lift it up?
Nailed flange
How do I secure if needed.
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My joints did not fail despite being naled on the outside and wraping around the gable end.House Picture I show the downspout by the wires in not correct and the down spout by the ladder is correct.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Post Number: 592
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You might want to include an expansion joint or two
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe thanks for all the informaton. So for the snow apron I would run flat lock and then for the gutter I would run flat seam. Where the apron meets the gutter how would you seam them together?
The plan is to use 8' x 3' sheets.
Sheet 1 is formed to hang over the drip edge follow the gutter then start up the roof.
The the second sheet I would flat seam to the first one. Then approximately every 7'10" I would have a flat seam joing next next sheet for the first. Start in the deep section of the gutter and proceed to the shallow end.

Is this plan sound I will take some pictures and upload them shortly.

Is the lentgh of 8' a problem?
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Joe (Joe)
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Post Number: 588
Registered: 07-2006


Posted on Friday, February 11, 2011 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you're just doing a snow apron, flat lock is best. If you're doing built-in-gutters on an old house, a lap seam may be better.

You need to extend the snow apron up far enough to be beyond the ice dam area. Three feet should be enough. Two feet would be better than nothing and on a 12:12 slope, it may be adequate.

You may want to pre-tin the copper to make it easier to solder on this steep slope. Or else do a standing seam snow apron, which requires little or no soldering. See: http://www.slateroofcentral.com/install_snow_aprons.htm.
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe thanks for the comments. With the extreme pitch 12/12 of the roof and the high melt rate I am considering running the copper up the roofline about 2 feet. Then let the roof overlap 3 to 4 inches. Would this approach help to eliminate ice dam intrusion into the interior of the house?
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Joe (Joe)
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Post Number: 586
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Posted on Monday, January 24, 2011 - 07:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The problem with flat-lock seams on old roofs is that they don't allow any room for error. If the roof is sagging or out of square, the flat-lock seams will be a huge bitch to get to fit right. That's when riveted lap seams work best.

Pre-tinning is a good idea, but not necessary. It's recommended when doing large areas or sloped areas or when the soldering personnel are not very experienced because it makes the soldering easier and faster.

You don't need to apply the ruby fluid until you're ready to solder - after riveting.

You're right about the underlayment. The ice shield junkies will tell you to use that, but don't waste your money unless you're expecting your work to leak.
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Thumanm (Thumanm)
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Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2011 - 07:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the videos and great information.

I have read through most of the information on this message board and I have a question. I see predominately inter locking flat seam. I have also seen overlapping riveted seam. Both are fully soldered closed. Which is better for a box gutter?
I have read about the expansion joints and will stay on the conservative side of 25'. Which means I will be adding down spouts when I reline my house where the galvanized steel is worn out. I will be replacing with 20oz copper.

I assume for both types of joints I need to pre tin all metal to metal contact in the joint and apply ruby fluid liberly before flattening or riveting. Can this be confirmed please?

Once I know what type of joint to use I will get the materials and practice practice in the basement so my confidence and ability by spring are enough to reline my own gutters.

What goes under the copper.
I have heard of building felt 30# in contact with the wooden frame then rosin paper over that.
Any other suggestions?
I want it done correctly.

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