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Joe Jenkins
Senior Member
Username: Joe

Post Number: 92
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pamela,

We have dealt with 10 year old copper gutters with leaking solder joints by grinding the joints clean with a high speed 4" grinding tool and a brass wire wheel, then resoldering the joints. We didn't have to add rivets. We did have to add expansion joints, the lack thereof was what probably caused the joints to fail.

The use of mastic, caulk or anything other than copper or solder will just ruin the system. It will make it impossible to resolder because the joints will be contaminated, unless these materials can be completely removed.
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Joe Jenkins
Senior Member
Username: Joe

Post Number: 91
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sharif,

You can't see the metal in those built-in gutters in those photos. You can only see that they were covered with something. They were either copper originally or terne metal, soldered gutter systems.
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jason winfrey
Junior Member
Username: 1roofpro

Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

cleaning the joints and soldering strips over them would probably work, but i dont think it would last. your best bet is to reline w/ new copper installed properly. its pretty rare that we use rivits, we usually lock seam everything together.
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Pamela Rosengard
New member
Username: Dach

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have copper-lined box gutters approximately 30 years old. The seams appear to have been repaired by previous owners with caulk, liquid solder and solder. Some of them are clearly bad.
(1)One of the proposals I have received for addressing this issue has involved relining the box gutters with 16 ounce copper. Is 16 ounce sufficient?
(2) Another proposal has been to wirebrush clean, place a strip of copper on the seams, pop rivet and solder them. This same contractor warned that the solder might not hold because it may not be possible to entirely clean the copper enough and if that is to prove to be true, he recommends putting on a strip of copper, pop riveting and coating it with a tripolymer sealant.
(3)Yet other contractors have told me that pop riveting actually creates more opportunity for leakage.
Could advise me on these issues?
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Sharif Attia
New member
Username: Sharif

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am inovolved in a slate reroofing project of an 1882 building in DC which has "boxed" gutters, currently lined with some kind of membrane/ built up roofing. The low slope portion of the roof has the same covering. (See attached roof plan and pictures).

The cornice below the eave appears to be covered with a grey metal (shown peeling in the picture).

1: What metal do you think this is, given the age and location of the building?

2: What metals (other than copper) do you advise for the eaves?

3: Are there any problems with installing a new membrane/ built up roof on the low slope portion if it drains onto the slate?
application/pdfroof plan
slate roof plan.pdf (34.7 k)
application/pdfroof plan
slate roof plan.pdf (34.7 k)
application/pdf
slate roof pics.pdf (200.9 k)
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Steve Kendrish
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's getting about that time for a rebuild of my box gutters on my 1902. I am an avid DIYer and am doing the usual research before I jump in with both feet. Last year I bought a sheet of Terne II (sold in my area through Cassady Pierce). A 3x8 sheet was around $110 for the lighter gauge it is manufactured in (can't remember off-hand).

Anyway, my "boxed" gutters do not exactly resemble those pictured in my Slate Roof Bible, as they are one piece. I'm wondering if there are any other literature sources on the creation of traditional boxed gutters.

Also, what factors must be considered with joining the sheets (any alternatives to soldering?) and expansion/contraction?

Copper versus Terne II. (I think copper might be too fancy for my house)

Thanks in advance for any potential information.
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Joe Jenkins
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe that the Terne Coated Stainless steel will out last the copper (that's NOT terne coated steel, which does not have the durability of stainless steel). One factor to keep in mind - whatever metal you're using, is the need for expansion joints. Any run of 30' requires an expansion joint (some say 40'). Essentially, an expansion joint is a termination or end installed in the gutter, then a new section is started, also with an end. These are about an inch apart and a cap is made to install over the gap. This allows the gutter system to expand and contract. We installed some of these last year and I intend to put the photos on this web site when I get the chance.

Joe Jenkins
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Steve Kendrish
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 01:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the reply. So I will assume that there has to be at least one (1) down spout for each section that is terminated?

In the case of my original gutters, there is one continuous gutter in the shape of a "U" around 3 sides of my house about 30' long and 25' wide. I'm thinking I'm right at the threshold where I might not need any expansions.

Also, an aside. . . Could Terne II be TIG welded instead of soldered? I know it's not orthodox and it's definitely not traditional, but I do have access to the equipment and my dad is a certified and lifelong welder. Let's say I trust his welding skills more than my soldering skills.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 05:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is a zinc tin alloy as coating on the terneII which may inhibit it's being tig welded.
You should call Follansbee and ask their techs whether it's a viable method for joining sheets.
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admin
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If the gutter is composed of two 30' sections and a 25' cross section in a "U" configuration, I would put an expansion joint on one end of each 30' section, near the 25' cross section, and use at least three and as many as six downspouts. The expansion joint is typically installed at the high end of the gutter, but gutter lengths of 30', and even 25', benefit from drains at both ends unless there is good drainage in one direction.
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Steve Kendrish
Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 04:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, my next question has to do with additional materials and the soldering technique. What kind of solder, flux and rivets should be used to fuse the sections of TCS 2? Is there a surface pre treatment? The TCS will be new, but will I have to scuff or clean it with a solvent, etc.? Also, the soldering is done traditionally with the hot iron. Can it be done similar to copper water supply pipes using a propane torch technique? Too hot maybe? Also I plan to do most (if not all) of the soldering on the ground and then set the gutters in the rebuilt boxes. Any more thoughts, etc. would be geatly appreciated.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lacquer thinner is used to remove impurities prior to soldering.
It's recommended that you use lead free solder and flux with a high tin content-from Johnsons soldering or equivalent.According to Revere copper who also has sheet with ZT coating you can use regular flux and solder if approved by your architect.They say to use hand irons of 3 to 4 pounds each and don't use open flame.
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admin
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tin/lead solder will work fine, but it does contain lead, which is a no-no in some applications (that's why pure tin solder is recommended). The problem with open flame torches is they are notorious for catching buildings on fire. If you're soldering off the building and setting it in place, you can probably get away with an open flame torch.

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