| Author | Message | ||
     Jeffrey C Stone Junior Member Username: Shrllc Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2008 |
Fred, I personally cut the corners on the panel first, tin the edges and the bend. I tin with an older type acetylene "B" tank, with copper iron set. When soldering panels it gives a great pre tinned flow to the final solder joint. | ||
| Joe Jenkins Senior Member Username: Joe Post Number: 337 Registered: 07-2006  |
Here's a flat lock article: http://www.traditionalroofing.com/TR6_flat_lock.html | ||
| Slate Affair Inc. Senior Member Username: Slate_man Post Number: 296 Registered: 01-2007 |
What you have suggested should work great. There is info on this in the SRC message board libarary to your left in the list. Keep the pans flat with no bends till after dipping, also you will need to dip the edges almost 2 inches so that when you bend the pan the whole seam in coated. Cut of the corners first two. | ||
| Fred VonColln New member Username: Fredvoncolln Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2008 |
I'm getting ready to install a flat lock copper roof on an 8' x 12' porch. I want to tin the edges of the panels before installing them and have a question as to the method. I'm going to build a propane fired solder trough to dip the edges of the in. I plan to cut the panels to the proper shape dip them in acid, water wash, dip them in flux and then into the solder trough. Do you think this will work? Also, should I bend the edges before or after this process? | ||
| Peter Member Username: Plaughlin1 Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2007 |
Also, I cant see how long the panel run is , but with expansion & contraction in mind, i don't believe the caulk would last very long. | ||
| Peter Member Username: Plaughlin1 Post Number: 23 Registered: 03-2007 |
HI, I would be a bit hesitant to use a 10 year caulk with a 70 year flashing. I think i would try something like this. See the drawing attached, if you do solder the cleat down make sure you clean the copper with a BRASS wire brush and flux liberally.  | ||
| Melissa Lieb New member Username: Melissalieb Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2008 |
I have a coper standing seam roof that was installed with skylights minus the cricket on the upslope. Crickets were installed later and damaged the standing seams and panels during the process. The cricket and copper panels overlap but are not sealed. I would like to repair the open overlap with applying NP-1 caulk between the two pieces, then using copper rivers to pop river the pieces together, then installing strips of butyl tape over the riverts and seam as a belt and suspenders system. Any alternative repair suggestions or product information on the butyl tape. I have had experience with Alumaflash butyl tape manufacturered by Republis Powdered Metals, but since this product has aluminum on one side it do not was to use it because of galvanic corrosion. Any suggestions?   | ||
| leo mather New member Username: Leomather Post Number: 1 Registered: 06-2007 |
we used the finishing irons or seamers for the hips and ridges were you couldnt use a machine or manual seamer. We bend the copper up at a 90 it takes 3 moves to get a double fold. We use hickory mallets. The most efficent way we found was to have one man go up the hip making one bend and another man behind him making another. | ||
| Joe Jenkins Senior Member Username: Joe Post Number: 82 Registered: 07-2006 |
Stortz does make them and sell them on the web (http://www.stortz.com/metal_seamers.html) for $88.00 and $108.00 (81-B and C hand roofing double seamers). We sell them for 10% less, which should cover shipping, so just call us at 814-786-9085 if you want to order one.  | ||
| Slate Affair Inc. Intermediate Member Username: Slate_man Post Number: 36 Registered: 01-2007 |
If you are talking about locking iron for like standing seam roofing. I know www.stortz.com and www.metalforming-usa.com and www.nabocker.com have iron. | ||
| Slate Affair Inc. Intermediate Member Username: Slate_man Post Number: 35 Registered: 01-2007 |
If you are talking about locking iron for like standing seam roofing. I know www.stortz.com and www.metalforming-usa.com and www.nabocker.com have iron. | ||
| Bob Swartzmiller New member Username: Bswartzmiller Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2007 |
Joe what tool I am refering to is the U shaped tool used to lock the panels together. All I know as far as a name for the tool is a hammer lock tool. I called your shop and you where not in if you get this and still don't know what I'm looking for could you give me a call @ 419-447-1716. Thanks | ||
| Joe Jenkins Senior Member Username: Joe Post Number: 78 Registered: 07-2006 |
Bob, You should be able to buy dead-blow hammers at any good hardware store. Is that what you need? | ||
| Bob Swartzmiller New member Username: Bswartzmiller Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2007 |
Where do I purchase tools for hammer locking? We recently finished 3 small solder seam roofs and wore out the set we had! | ||
| Joe Jenkins Senior Member Username: Joe Post Number: 75 Registered: 07-2006 |
We will be hosting the first SRCA conference this year in June in western PA. We expect to have introductory workshops on various copper issues such as built-in gutters with expansion joints, soldered flat-lock, maybe standing seam. It's still in the planning stages (see http://www.slateroofers.org/conference_2007.html). | ||
| AF New member Username: Tonyeriepa Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2007 |
Or, an even better idea Joe, is if there's a planned copper roofing workshop this year? It could cover doing curved (over front door)standing seam and built-in box? gutters! | ||
| mark davis |
In your last issue you mentioned about coming out with a video on the steps needed to install flat seam panel roof. any update to when this will happen. | ||
| admin |
Haven't got it together yet. Sorry. It's still on the "to do" list. I do have the video footage already. I just need to get it into a computer, edit it, etc., etc., Joe | ||
| Fletch |
Please, please...... I am waiting expectantly for the video. I read the article in traditional roofing and the small section in the latest edition of the bible.... and I am still not getting it (as in completing the whole project/I understand the small parts in those references). For example, the pictures of Barry Smith soldering in the latest Bible are what I want to be able to do. Nice work!! I am tempted to order the soldering tools and do a test run on my brothers outdoor garden structure. This structure has four sides, a ridge, 4 hips, a slope of 4:12 (guess). Is this possible to do a soldered seam copper roof on? (He wants something different than slate, as in copper). I am also interested in any seminars you might be giving in the future. I might also be willing to help someone with a complex metal roofing project. I hope you also include in your future video a small video appendage for your technique for folding over the tops of two intersecting metal valleys. Hey.. how about a whole video series? -- I would be interested in a video on installing copper gutters. Thanks for your time. Best Wishes Fleming | ||
| ken |
if the pitch is 4-12, you should probably go with a double lock standing seam. you will get a cleaner look with less labour. soldered flat seams are for flat roofs and places where ice and snow will be sitting. | ||
| Barry |
Fleming, I'm not aware of any good videos out there that are very useful on the subject. Joe was able to organize a workshop a few years ago, and that gave me the courage to take the next step. If you can't find a workshop (and you probably won't), I would suggest that you get some tools and do a little project, even if it is just a mock-up like is pictured in the Traditional Roofing Newsletter article. Ken is right about the particular project that you described. Double lock standing seam (DLSS) would be better for that pitch, but of course, a flat lock soldered seam would work. Soldering isn't rocket science, but it does take practice and time to learn what it looks and feels like when it is working and when it is not. In the beginning, it is good to start by soldering 2 pieces of metal together, and then cutting open a cross-section of the joint and seeing if the solder has filled in the open spaces. Try to tear it apart. This allows you to see if you are on the right track. Some seams, as in built-in gutter joints, are normally lapped and riveted, and the rivets should be on 2" centers or less. The rivets then need to be soldered too. You might want to pick up the "Architectural Sheet Metal Manual" put out by the Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning Contractors' Naational Association, Inc. (SMACNA). It doesn't tell much about soldering, but it does have a lot of info about layout of metal components. It is also ridiculously expensive, the last time I checked. Their address is; 4201 Lafayette Center Drive, Chantilly, VA 20151-1209 Good luck, Barry Smith | ||
| Tony, Erie PA |
Has anyone tried using lifetime silicone caulk in flat seam panel roofs and thereby avoiding the soldering step? If the panels got more cleats to give more stability, wouldn't it work OK ... yes, I don't like the soldering!! Has anyone tried the Acrymax acrylic multi-layered paint restoration product on terne panel flat roofs? I just tore off a botched roll-roof job of my flat roof (much toil), released all the trapped moisture on the rusting and pinholed terne underneath, and then did their mesh+elastomeric paint coating ... it looks great, is now waterproof, and seaming is still visible, but I'm just wondering on the long-term "prognosis". | ||
| admin |
The Copper Development Association (not sure of name) puts out videos about the use of architectural copper. Their video on flat seam copper roofing briefly states that you can use caulk instead of solder in the seams, but they give no details. We have often waterproofed old soldered-seam terne metal roofs with liquid asphalt emulsion and fiberglass membrane. So yes, you can go over top of the old flat-seam "tin" roofs with a seamless, reinforced brush-on material. | ||
| ken |
I have seen people use a "50 year" silicone instead of solder. General Electric makes many such products, and one is even colored to look like real solder. The instalation is hundreds of times faster than soldering, hundreds of times easier, and it may even last longer than a soldered joint, but if you ask me, this is cheating. There is no substitute for a good solder job. Nothing beats real metal joined to real metal. By the way, if you are looking for a good manual on copper roofing, order the one called Copper Roofing in Detal, from the European Copper Roofing Campaign, at www.cda.org.uk/arch (i think). They are related to the American CDA, but offer different publications. This is the best book on copperwork that I have found so far. Interestingly, there is no mention of soldering, but they show ways to lap and fold the metal so that you dont need to solder anyway. | ||
| ken |
I just checked, and that link is working. (www.cda.org.uk/arch). It seems that many of the details, if not the whole book, are downloadable. There is excellent information there if you're interested in good roofing. Another manual that i would recommend is Copper And Common Sense, by the Revere Copper company, which is free, but was out of print recently. They said that a new edition should be coming out soon though. | ||
| Tony, Erie PA |
Thanks Ken- Yes, I've looked at that site ... lots of good diagrams on vertical seam work and wall cladding and transitions, but slim on the flat seam! Tony F | ||
| Spencer P. |
JUST MY WAY OF THINKING If you use any type of material other than solder on a new copper (cold rolled,leaded or zinc coated) roofs you are taking the cheaters way out and you should NOT be installing these types of roofs. This also includes terne metal roofs (period). This also includes any types of chimney flashings and cricket areas that may have to to locked together. Now as Joe mentions in patching an old terne metal roof it is acceptable to use brush on emulsion with fiberglass membrane to support and keep the emulsion together and tight during expansion and contraction. But, if you need to reseal a seam on any type of copper roof (cold roll, leaded or zinc coated) it should be cleaned and resoldered. Any type of caulking is for folks who either can't solder or don't want to spend the time to do it right. Also I agree best paint for old terne metal roofs is Tinners green or red. Hope I didn't strike a bad nerve with any one but what is right is right. DO IT RIGHT OR DON'T DO IT AT ALL. S.P. | ||
| Anonymous |
The advice given to repair the Terne tin porch roof was for the Home owner who may or may not have soldering skills? Also the area of metal that was loose,although I may not of understood where excatly the metal was loose,But I thought it was in an area that was not in direct contact with the main body ? Soldering 60 or 80 year old tin is a difficult job.Just trying to give advice to help maintain another old roof that may still have some life left.And sometimes we have to learn what is right from what we do wrong,which is better to try than not do it at all. | ||
| Anonymous |
also, dont burn your house down. | ||
| Spencer P. |
Anonymous didn't you read what I said it is acceptable has Joe says to patch a terne tin(metal) roof with brush on emulsion and fiberglass membrane. The type of roof I said to solder is any type of copper roof. Read through it all. And yes I agree it is better to try than not try at all but, if you are getting paid to work on these types of roofs than it is better to learn the skill from a seasoned veteran of slate and copper roofing than try and ruin someones home and belongings and give slate and copper roofers bad names, while you are learning from your mistakes! That is why this is such a graet forum which to discuss these types of issues and be able to make a more educated answer to wheather or not anyone (not just you) should tackle certain types of jobs. No offense intended. | ||
| admin |
I should clarify my opinion on old terne metal (tin) soldered seam roofs. If the tin has rusted through in spots, which is common, we apply the emulsion and fiberglass. This renders the surface waterproof and can be reapplied periodically to keep it that way. Re-applications don't need more fiberglass either, once the initial application is done. Emulsion is a two-step process. First it's brushed on heavily and the fiberglass is rolled out (we use 3' rolls) into the emulsion. The fiberglass is brushed into the emulsion, then covered with more emulsion. The entire roof surface is done this way. Then, youlet it dry overnight or for a couple days and apply a heavy finish coat of emulsion over top of the first application. If you want to do a really thorough job, apply yet another coat after one year. Then, every ten years after that. If the tin is not rusted through and is not leaking, we always paint it either with tinner's green or tinner's red. Joe Jenkins | ||
| Anonymous |
None taken.When the tin has holes the emulsion and fabric works well,we have also installed rubber roof systems over the existing tin (.5" board then .060 epdm,adhered system) The Price difference compared to a standing seam or flat lock copper is a deciding factor for some of our customers. --- Just finished repairing a Slate roof on a barn that was hit by lightning,The lightning ran down one rafter,lifted or removed about 50 slate,splintered the rafter(25'long ) at several areas,the strange thing was the only damage to the sheathing was a 2" hole near the peak of the roof.It was a miracle that it did not burn down. This barn has no lightning rods,Do they really work? I have always wondered how they could handle the voltage of a lightning strike? Do the points help dissapate the bolt? | ||
| Joe Jenkins (Admin) |
The lightning rods are connected to heavy cable that is run into the ground. Presumably, the current is diverted directly into the ground and not via the building, thereby sparing damage to the building. Although lightning rods were once popular on barns and older homes, many of the original lightning arrest systems have become dilapidated and have been removed. There doesn't seem to have been a noticeable increase in lightning damage as a result. I think lightning arrest systems would be best suited for buildings that have no other lightning attractors nearby (which would be tall trees, etc.). A building alone in a flat field, for example, would be a candidate for lightning rods. | ||
| Anonymous |
One time we were working on a house where the lightning had apparantly hit the copper gutter and traveled down a leader, blowing a hole in the brick wall at the point where there was a rack and key holding the leader to the wall. That was strange. This was the only sign that lightning had struck the house. From my understanding, lightning takes the easiest path to the ground, similar to water maybe. I have also heard that it really travels from the ground up. I'd like to learn more though. | ||
| Larry E. Peters |
Never try to use sealant in leiu of solder on a low slope flat seam copper roof! You are asking for lots of trouble down the line. Copper Development Association.... | ||
| SPENCER P. |
Thank You, This is the only way SOLDER. SPENCER P. | ||
| Anonymous |
My request is for information about flat lock soldering using 16 oz. copper. My several-tons-of-lead-experience repairing damaged autos, ending early 1970's, seems to be of little value. I have an "Express" propane powered unit with medium tip. So, I am now missing some key points on how to solder. Especially with this Express unit. Cannot do well enough to "tin". And, unable to get enough heat to draw the solder into the joints. Please advise about other specific equipment options. Thanks to all. Arthur | ||
| admin |
I prefer the large head on the express unit, but you should still be able to get enough heat from the medium head that comes with the unit. We always clean the joints (after flattening them with a dead blow hammer), using a brass wire wheel on a cordless drill, prior to fluxing the joint. This makes it easier to solder. Also, the soldering process is a slow one and can't be rushed. If you don't seem to be getting the solder to sweat in the first time over the joint, go over it again, even three times if necessary. If you know you're going to go over the joint more than once, then don't worry about the first pass. Use it to deposit solder in the depressed side of the joint to even out the height and make it easier for the second pass. Make sure your copper tip is hot enough when soldering on a flat surface. Bridge the full joint with the tip - don't hold the solder tip on one side of the joint or the other. Your solder seam should be as wide as the solder tip (about an inch and a half or so). On a vertical surface, you may have to turn the heat down a bit to keep the solder from running all over the place. There is some info about this process in the Slate Roof Bible, 2nd edition. Joe | ||
| Walter Musson |
When you get heat enough to the seam the solder will pull in quickly. Most often the tip doesn't have enough surface area to heat the copper thoroughly,i.e. not shaped correctly.You should have a long piece of the iron touching the seam so that heat is dispersed more fully.The tip shapes of the Express I've seen are hatchet shaped which isn't the best for flat seam work. I use an acetylene unit from ASCO which puts out more heat and you can shape the tips for the job at hand.When your copper is heated fully the solder will flow so that you can complete the seam in one pass. | ||
| Anonymous |
Thanks Joe and Walter. I am still in the test / experimenting stage on the bench. Made some improvement progress yesterday. Will practice more by incrementally increasing the psi gauge, and by keeping the iron tip clean and tinned. I will test application / process; and, check cut-out sections for bondage, strength, and consistency; until I am confident of my abilities. Years of time lapse without maintaining the art plays somewhat with the confidence factor. Is my attempt to "draw"[as does a plumber] the over-lap fold full of solder correct, or, should I be soldering only the exposed folded edge to the underlying surface? Arthur | ||
| Walter Musson |
You do want to pull in as much solder as possible.Try to keep as much of your tip in contact with the copper to help heat the joint so that the solder will flow better.When you get your heat right you'll see how easily it flows. | ||
| admin |
Make some short (4') test joints and solder them inside your shop/garage whatever. You'll get the hang of it. | ||
| Walter Musson |
Arthur, How large a roof will you be doing and what size are your lock seam panels? | ||
| brant baber |
I have a 120+ year old house in Clifton, Virginia [Fairfax County] with its original terne roof and a newer addition, and need to find a contractor who is experienced in dealing with the scraping, patching and painting process. Any recommendations will be appreciated. Brant Baber 703-591-2323, x101 | ||
| Joe Jenkins |
http://www.jenkinsslate.com/directory.html |
