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Bob_wewer (Bob_wewer)
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Username: Bob_wewer

Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2013
Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 11:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lifetime? That is a laugh! Take a 25 yr. shingle and boost it to 30, then a lifetime???? They must be expecting the apocalypse and cashing in is the thought of the day. What really infuriates me is the roofer that knows better and goes to his client and sells the low grade products as lifetime. When a real man of his word comes in a tries to sell the best roof possible, the lines are blurred and Mr. & Mrs. Jones just look at $ I just got out of shingling. I never had time for nail guns and always did my best even flashing chimneys (they took longer than doing the whole roof) for peanuts because Joe Schmo would just muck it. Now I go around flashing chimneys that were done wrong. Search: "Chimney Flashing 101" if you want to see my work.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 804
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brendan, I know we have talked about this before, but I have to point out to you that not all roofs will take slate. How about a flat roof? Should they only be built up roofs or are the new membrane roofs ok? Asphalt shingles are just built up roofs for a sloped roof. Slate works better, but it doesn't work very well from a 1 / 12 to a 4 / 12 or 5 / 12. There are 100's of millions of square feet of shingles sold every year. I don't know if there is enough people required to split that much slate if it was all slate roofs. (Real slate is all split by hand right?)

Just yanking your chain big guy!
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Branden_wilson (Branden_wilson)
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Username: Branden_wilson

Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i still cannot comprehend how you guys serve two masters. i imagine "just sell it. oh it's chit, well if they want it, sell it. their money still spends." meanwhile we blame the ever decreasing demand for proper roofs on everything but ourselves. most of you make the majority of your money selling this crap. you really don't think if all the best contractors refused to install lies that would help things? why doesn't rolls royce make a crossover if that's what people want? bently compromised with the gt coupe. it made them profits but destroyed their origional brand. and screwed up the market. now all the wannabee's can get a bently for 120k. yeah it's not much of a bently but to them it is. so why would they buy a more simple looking but better built bently for 300k? to those who know, why would they buy a 300k bently when the whole bently brand is now marketed to celebrities, sports players and rappers? those who buy that car for a different reason have switched to rolls or others. look what the xtype did to the jaguar name. it's like these WASR ak 47's out there. now people call a real ak "expensive" because you can get what looks just like an ak for 500 bucks and a real one is never less than a thousand. you don't loose the educated consumers but you loose the masses and the masses are important to demand. don't sleep with the enemy but refer to it as the enemy every time it leaves the room. these shingles are your bread and butter. if you don't like how they're getting out of control, do something. i'd start with not installing them and go from there. i know it feels like you can't make a difference by yourself but you will. if at the end of the day you follow the money, at least try to hide it cause it's an obvious weakness no matter how many dollars you accumilate

REAL SLATER
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 581
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, that is impressive. That works out to a "lifetime" warranty on the shingle vent II anyway!
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Bud (Bud)
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Username: Bud

Post Number: 54
Registered: 02-2010
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mohawk I agree. Statistics rule the day, it's book making for manufacturers.

The ventilation on a shingle roof is big time important and thanks to a cassette tape that I was gifted waaaayyyy back in the 90's I learned to sell ventilation with a roof included. It often is what gets me the job at a higher price than Buck and Jakies low ball.

Interesting factoid, I just was called out to fix a leak on a shingle roof, big surprise it was the plumbing vent pipe flange. When I was driving down the street to the house I noticed something didn't look right. Turns out the external baffle (a key feature on a ridge vent)on the shingle over ridge vent was coming off at various locations around the roof. Before I got out of the van I had the factory Rep for AirVent in the phone. Next I sent pictures and a proposal for the repair. The other day 3 boxes of ShingleVent II come UPS, AirVent is paying me (no cost to the homeowner) to change out the existing ShingleVent...the roof is 20 years old!

One more reason to stick with a top line manufacturer.....failures happen, it's how they are handled that is important.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 579
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mohawk, That is by far the most important thing on a shingle roof; the ventilation system. Like you say, it will toast a shingle roof in a hurry. I am sure it will affect a slate roof too, but not nearly as much.

Most slate we look at today was installed on homes or buildings with minimal insulation and very little ventilation. When they are insulated and brought up to "current" energy standards, it will be interesting to see how the rock on the roof holds up.
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
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Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 148
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 01:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Like many sales claims, "lifetime" means the period of time that the current owner lives in the house receiving the roof. The average American lives in a single family home that they own for 21.5 years. Subtract a few years for the period before they re-roof, and the 30 yr archs only need to last 18 or so. (Yet many don't)

The best you can do is educate the potential customer. I explain to them that the manufacturer's warranty is only honored IF it is installed propoerly. When you look at the manufacturer's instructions, you'll see a requisite for full breathing/ventilation from the soffits to the ridges.

New construction? No worries.

Old house? Not gonna happen.

I've seen houses in Boston that have had their Monson slate roofs trashed because the flashings failed and some scum bag convinced the owner to re-roof with 30 yr archs. Five years later and the roof is potato chip central. And what does the consumer find out when he pursues the manuf's warranty?

Installer error! Go pound salt.
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Bud (Bud)
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Username: Bud

Post Number: 53
Registered: 02-2010
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 07:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

More good points as always Old School. Maybe it will come down to the T-shirt I remember growing up. It was black with a skull wearing a beret with the phrase 'killem all and let God sort'm out'

I may make my own shirt up that says 'put'm on right and God sort'm out'

I am weary of the BS claims made up to sell product, statistics and studies telling the manufacturers what the odds are. One sure thing about asphalt shingles is that it will last a lifetime....in the landfill.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 578
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We used to put on thousands of squares of 3-1 shingles when I was a kid. They had a 15 year guarantee at the time, and some of them lasted quite a bit longer than that. I redid some that were about 35 - 40 years old; very few mind you, but some. We also did a bank roof in 1964 using the 2 tab asbestos felt shingles that was just redone this past year, and that is about 46 years. None of them were "Lifetime" shingles. I still don't get how there would be any difference between a 30 or 40 or 50 year shgingle, if they all had a "Lifetime" guarantee.

I know that they can make the shingles last for a long time if they put in the right stuff, but that costs money, and sooner than later they will cut the quality to compete with those who are cutting corners. It has happened in cycles for the last 50 years that I have been watching it, and I suppose it will continue this time too. Just different names on the companies.

Hey, we don't know the quality of a lot of the slates that are coming into the market here in the states. How do you know for sure? Good question.
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Bud (Bud)
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Username: Bud

Post Number: 52
Registered: 02-2010
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is defined differently based on the credentials of who put it on, if they followed the letter of the law for install (Joe would have a cow if he saw all the places they want ice & water shield), and if the attic ventilation is or isn't correct.

I agree that there is alot of smoke and mirrors to look through. I also know that GAF has been making some improvements of the past couple of years that have led up to this...still 'whose lifetime' is something that I have heard for a long time when answering the warranty question on other lifetime products.

My take is that no good will come of it.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 577
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 09:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You notice that they don't tell you "Whose" lifetime. They all have 30 and 40 and 50 year shingles. Why would you buy a 50, when you can buy a 30 and get the same guarantee?

If they still make all the different "grades" of shingles, then the real slate will be a superior amoung equals. Smoke and mirrors in the end.
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Bud (Bud)
Senior Member
Username: Bud

Post Number: 51
Registered: 02-2010
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To whom it may concern, GAF/ELK announced a few weeks ago that they will now offer a lifetime warranty on there products with no additional price increase.

IMO, stupid. Completely a marketing move that will soon be followed by the other manufacturers following with the same ridiculous program. Customers will see the bold print promising a lifetime of no more roof concerns and additionally the install habits will not change so it will be a real nightmare when we go out to repair a lifetime warranty roof and try to collect for it. I can't wait!

I post it to this forum that regards slate because I am concerned that it may dampen the sales of what we know to be a superior product. Granted there will still be those that will rather have slate than asphalt, bless them and sell them a roof. A consumer that sees a price of a 30 year roof and the promise of a lifetime is going to bite, the new home constructors will see a selling point and a price point.

So what do you guys think? Do you see any overlap or impact? I would love to hear your offerings.

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