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steven smith
New member
Username: Scottish_slater

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

u can get a slate punch its a bit like a press that will punch ten to twenty slate at a time with counter sunk holes get with the times guys
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Joe Jenkins
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 09:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Charles,

Use a masonry drill bit.
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charles summerlin
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i ned to drill out some holes in slate to hold up a pole about 12 foot long.what typeof drill would be best to ues.thanks chasumm@aol.com ps hope someone can help me
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joe jenkins
Posted on Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is a disturbing trend among some slate manufacturers - drilling slates with no counter sinking. Such slates are sub-standard and are not to be used by competent slaters! The nail heads will ride against the overlying slates and wear holes in them, greatly reducing the waterproof life of the roof.
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llibkore6
Posted on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 06:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why not just punch new holes in them as you lay the slate?
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joe
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You can do that but it's a huge waste of time. They're supposed to come from the quarry properly punched.
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Tim Dittmar
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 07:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wonder why they didn't just punch the holes- better result than drilling and it seems so "low tech" compared to drillbits, etc.- even a dull punch works quite well and probably takes less time also- kinda' wonder if there's something functionally wrong with the slate to negate punching- say, is it too hard to punch well and has high percentage of shattering? just sorta' groping around looking for the matches here...
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slateguy@neslate.com
Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 08:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some slate does not punch well. Thick slate - 1/2" or more, for instance. Also small slate with a narrow aspect ratio such as 12" x 6".

To try to equate punchability with quality is a mistake.

Some of the most durable slate is also the most prone to shattering. Unfading Red is notoriously difficult to punch or cut without breaking and at $5 or $10 per slate for UF Red, you won't want to break too many.

Black Monson, one of the finest slates ever produced, is another example of an excellent-quality slate that defies punching. Almost all of the "true" monson had (has) beautiful drilled and countersunk holes.

I think that the pneumatic punching machines break less slate but if you are just punching them with the pick on a slater's hammer - or using the old-style foot-propelled puncher the impact and subsequent trauma to the slate is significant.

Drilling burns up ordinary masonary drill bits at an alarming rate. I'm not sure if there is an industrial strength bit (diamond maybe?) with a countersink, but it would be a plus to get the industry norm to change to countersunk holes.
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Tim Dittmar
Posted on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Slateguy- that was extremely informative and concise- really filled in a few "gaps" for me, as well- I'd been aware that there were "species" of rock too hard for practical use in shingling(Carolina bluestone was one) even though the thought was, "Gee, this would last forever!"- guess there are some slate varieties that border on unusable(difficult to work with in the field- for one- and scarce, as well) but it's quite a challenge(and rewarding, too) to work with something possessed of that level of permanency- huh? Thanks again for your expertise!
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A Consumer
Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 01:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've been browsing sites about slate to get familiar with the product, before choosing a contractor to replace some on my house. It's refreshing to hear the dedication to quality you have expressed in your messages. Do you think it's possible that these slate manufacturers are drilling the holes without counter sinking so that more slates will have to be purchased from them when the overlaying slate gets worn from the nail head? I truly hope that's not the case. Pride in one's work, as I can tell you have, is much more valuable than money.
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Dedicated worker
Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the time those problems became apparent, enough time would likely have passed to the extent that no one's really sure just where the slate was purchased(sans documentation, of course). There are more likely, and immediate, methods to generate so-called "extra profit/s" but of course, again, the industry's reputation takes another "hit" when this sort of thing happens- ex./s : less zealous culling of damaged/inferior/too thin/pyrite-stricken slates that won't give the touted service life of that particular slate variety- another would be to vend(at excessive price?): slates with a generally short expected life(and not own up to the fact) or slates of particularly small size which are generally thought less utile because of extra labor, etc. to cover a given surface ......
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Joe
Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Undernailed slates will wear holes in the slates above them over a period of many decades, so there is no incentive for the manufacturer to create the problem. They do it because it's faster to drill a stack of slates all at once then to drill and countersink them one at a time. They sacfirice quality for quantity, a general problem with products today.
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SlateGuy@neslate.com
Posted on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yup,
I agree with Joe, having been, in a past life, on the production side of that slate stack. We drilled as many as the drill press could handle - 4 or 5 at a time.

Drilling countersunk holes one-by-one would add expense in both labor and materials in an industry where there is already considerable pressure on prices from imports and cut-throat pricing.

There are a lot more producers and brokers fighting over a pie that I don't think is getting bigger at this point in time.

Slate Guy
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Steve
Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Im in NJ/eastern Pa..any idea where i can get some gray slate..for my old house??How much do you think..i should pay for it??Steve from Allentown,NJ
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admin
Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 02:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Check out the list at http://www.jenkinsslate.com/newslate.html
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Chris Dunsky
Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve, About how much gray slate do you need? I may have a good source for you in your area. Email me at cjd@honigman.com

Chris
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Stephen J Taran
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am on the quarring end of making roofing slate and also deal in used slate. I have never heard of anyone or any roofer complain about nail heads wearing in the slate above it. For one theres not much movement on a roof to cause this and two how are we supposed to put a hole in a piece 3/4 of an inch thick. We still punch all of our standard thickness slate and when we drill we do it one piece at a time. We own a red quarry and yes we even punch that.I have stripped alot of used slate and have come across many slates that the roofer put his own nail holes in and they were not countersunk but yet the piece above it was not worn at all even on a 50 year old roof. I think people just like the traditional look of the holes my self included. But you can not punch thick slate.
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admin
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We run into holes in slate all the time, worked through the overlying slates by a nail underneath (when the nail was under-nailed or else backed out a bit because it was nailed into a knot or something). Although this is a very common problem with older slate roofs, you will not see this so much on roofs where the slate is still quite hard. It's almost universal on PA Lehigh-Northampton slate roofs and quite common on older Vermont Sea Green slate roofs. They are so common that I put a picture of one on page 228 of the Slate Roof Bible. Thicker slates that cannot be punched don't matter so much because they don't lay as flat against each other (for one thing) and they would take a lot longer to wear a hole through if they did. Thicker slates tend to be rougher and therefore have slight gaps between them that allow space for nail heads. So the drilling of thicker slates is acceptable. It's mostly the standard thickness slates (3/16") that develop a problem with under-nailed slates over time.
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admin
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

PS: Thanks for pointing that out, Steve, about the thicker slates. I have now clarified this on my other web pages where I advise against buying drilled slates.
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Larry
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am looking to buy some standard 1/4" slate. I have contacted several of the slate companies that are referenced on the website regarding whether they countersink their holes. For example, I emailed Evergreen Slate which is listed and here's their exact response to my question,

"The nail holes can either be punched or drilled. Both methods will provide you with an area that allows for the nail head to rest in".

Now, Joe, what kind of response is that? Did he answer my question? I think that Evergreen completely ignored "countersinking". I could be wrong. Can anyone vouch for Evergreen? If anyone can provide me with a good reliable list of Slate companies who do in fact "countersink" these holes. I don't want to waste time in contacting companies who don't offer "countersink" holes. Joe, maybe you should not reference companies who don't follow this trend.
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Larry
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In another followup to my previous message. Here's the exact response which I got from Renaissance Roofing, Inc out of Chicago (I have emails to support). Renaissance Roofing is also listed as a seller of Slate in Joe's new slate section of the website,

"The holes are not counter sunk; they are just 2 predrilled holes. The reasoning behind no countersunk holes is that you do not want to secure the fastener to the slate tightly; you want to have some play in the slate for expansion and contraction."

So, Joe, what do you think of Renaissance Roofing's response?

thanks Larry
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Walter Musson
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The process of punching the hole from the backside creates a crater much like a BB on a windshield.It is enough to set the copper nailhead into.Drilling doesn't obtain the same results.
Evergreen is a good company that handles a lot of product.
The old Monson slate had drilled and true countersunk holes,a real treat to use since it's also of the highest quality stone.
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Clay Heald
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do not believe there is anyone that currently drills nail holes with a countersunk area for the head of the nails. As Walter mentioned, the Monson slates are a prime example. Many companies now are drilling their slates, but there are a few that still offer punched slates, unless the slates are "heavies".

Not only does the punching process give a recessed area for the nail head, but is also the last quality filter before it reaches the pallet.

Clay Heald
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admin
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Punched or counter-sunk nail holes that allow the nail head to rest in a depression in the slate are a necessary part of the design of a standard thickness (3/16" to 1/4") slate roof. Otherwise, the nail head will rub against the overlying slate and, *in time* wear a hole through it. Even punched nail holes will have this problem *to a small extent* when the slates are under-nailed. It doesn't make sense to install a slate roof where all the nails are essentially under-nailed due to the lack of counter-sinking on the nail holes *if* you want to do the best job (not everyone does). Holes worn through overlying slates due to nail heads underneath are a cause of premature failure of slate roofs, a fact I have often observed during my decades of slate roof restoration experience. These holes can be easily repaired with a bib flashing under the perforated slate once the protruding nail head is punched down a bit, but when entire roofs are installed this way, it is potentially a huge mistake.

I have found that some slate manufacturers have little or no experience with either slate roof installation or with slate roof repair/restoration. If they had more experience with these things, they would make sure their slate manufacturing techniques allowed for the countersinking of the nail holes.

Personally, I do not recommend that people buy from slate manufacturers who don't care about this important detail. I always send people to those manufacturers who still do it the old fashioned way. Not everyone on my list does, I can guarantee you that. The list is provided for information purposes only and not as an endorsement by me.

Drilled holes will break out the slate a little and sometimes there will be a depression in which to rest the nail head, especially if the nail head is copper (softer and more pliable) - but often there is little or no depression when the hole is drilled. Punched holes virtually always have the necessary depression. Not all slate roofs are installed with copper nails. We use stainless steel nails when re-roofing over hard sheathing boards. Stainless steel nail heads are *not* soft and pliable and absolutely require a countersunk nail hole.

Larry, the answers you're getting sound pretty hokey to me. Slates don't expand and contract, for example. Granted, they aren't supposed to be nailed tightly, which is another reason why the hole needs to be countersunk. Otherwise every nail head will be rubbing against the overlying slate if one is avoiding nailing too tightly.

I know that Camara punches their slate the old-fashioned way. I'm not trying to promote one manufacturers product over another's, so if any of you other slate manufacturers pay attention to this important detail and make sure you allow for nail head countersinking, please let us all know. I would like to add that information to my web site.

Joe Jenkins
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JAYCO
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 01:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dont know about Ren. Roofings new slate quality but i am familar w/ them. They do great work with high prices! Sounds like a deal to me!
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Sam Petersheim
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have 5000 10X12 slate I would like to sell. They are in great condition. 540-896-2573
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Larry
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here are some additional comments from "Greenstone Slate Company" out of Poultney, VT regarding countersinking. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, this is FYI.


"The holes are pre-drilled. the countersink is a result of the drilling process. So the countersink will range from being very prominent to being hardly noticeable. the countersink of the nail hole is a topic of varying opinions between the hard core traditional slaters/architects, and the modern manufacturers of slate roofing. The traditional countersink is
created by the "blowout" caused from punching the slate from the back side with a slate punch. The modern drilling procedure does not create the exagerated "blowout" that punching slates does. The exagerated "blowout" was needed years ago when slate roofing was applied with square cut nails, and the countersink was needed to recess the large nail head. By todays standards the thickness of a copper nail head is prox 4/100 thick, so the countersink issue is somewhat of a mute point. The nail heads used today will not raise the slates laid above it even with a minimal countersink. The Greenstone Slate Company drills all of its slates, we do not "punch" slates, so the countersink that is created is mimimal by comparison to punching."
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admin
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sam, go back to "main topics" and post your slate for sale message under "slate for sale."

Larry, nail holes are drilled for convenience and speed, not because they create a better product. Much like plywood roof decks, which are used for the convenience of the contractor and/or architect, a whole new generation of slate roofs is being created that are sub-standard. The tried and proven methods (punched holes, board decks) work, of course, and when followed, will guarantee a slate roof of maximum longevity.

Joe Jenkins
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Larry
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe, yes, I am aware. I have your SLB (1st ed) and that's why I am doing all of this background checking before I place my order. From my research, I found that I can purchase pre-punched (not predrilled) slate from Camara (and I am sure there's more out there). However, I will be paying $0.21 more per piece (due to freight), I think that the small increase may be worth it so I have a decision to make. Not a big selection of places here in the midwest for the little guy to purchase slate. There are approx. three maybe four local companies in my area who advertise that they do slate roofing. My bet is that they buy their stock out of Chicago. Your book and website has helped me, the little guy immensely. I have purchased salvaged slate from you Joe one year while returning from a football game out east. I will buy my own slate and make repairs when I can. When I can't, I will hire someone else, but use my slate (at least I know where it came from). To keep this going, here's the response from Camara (Shawn Camara) out of Vermont regarding their product.

"Yes—we punch our slate –we do not drill them—the companies that drill there slates, drill them so there is less breakage on their end—but more on your end!!"

Camara Slate Products, Inc.

802-265-3200 PH

802-265-2211 FX
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JAYCO
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sam Petershien:
How Much? What Color? Where At?
JASON.WINFREY@SBCGLOBAL.NET
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robin
Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

in here (belgium) we don't have that problem as we don't nail our slates.. we always, well;, xcept for some real old classified buildings, use slatehooks.. works faster, easyer to repair and problems like these don't exist.. only thing is, you have to keep straight lines, cause on the hooks u can see from the ground if the roof is professionally done or not.. Interesting reading though
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admin
Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 01:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You can also see the hooks from the ground - especially on a sunny day - which is an aesthetic issue. I prefer slate roofs without visible metal hooks. I think nailed roofs look better. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, however.

Joe Jenkins
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robin
Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 01:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yep, that's right, but when good placed the hooks put same clear straight lines on your roof + we use them in 3 different colours: inox , blackinox and cupper and have them from 50mm (walls) up to 170mm (rooflaps over 12m high) 90mm is common for a 45degree roof btw (knowing u don't work metric)we use a lot of 'fake slate' in here also, and u need the hooks than, otherwise your bottom of those slates will curl up in the sun...
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robin
Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 02:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

btw, no natural slate is avaiable here with pré-drilled holes.. only we punch them ourselves or on very special demand
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admin
Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have been to Europe several times - visiting the roofing schools and looking at roofs, etc., in Scotland, Ireland, England, Wales, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, and I even drove through Belgium (at night - didn't see much). Also visited Holland and Switzerland.

By the way, what you were referring to as "plumb" we call "lead" here. We don't use it very often for flashing - not like in Europe. I do have a couple rolls of it in my shop (4# and 3#) and we do use it occasionally (mostly for plumbing-vent pipe flashings or flashing against rough stone), but there is an environmental hazard associated with lead (it's poisonous) so we don't use it a lot.

Joe Jenkins
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robin
Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

fantastic. u saw different systems of slates than, only missed the norwegian beavertails.. , lead is still common used in here, specially for difficult parts (round stuff..etc..) but now in holland they started to use more rubber for these things (carlisle-etc..) mostly it's for parts u don't see the lead anyhow, so they say the rubber will last just as long but is better for nature..
I checked some sites of slaters on your website-links and they do great stuff with cupper. I know a lot of people that would love to do that but there just isn't anybody that would ever pay the price..

I started to make a website years ago but never finished and have hundreds of pics to load up and pages to make.. maybe some of them are interesting for you.. I'll let u know when http://users.pandora.be/sisters/roofs.htm
is updated, I'll start in winter.. be sure to check the site of Ratscheck, I think it's www.ratscheck.de for great pics of possibilities with german slate..

Belgium slate doesn't exist anymore since 18 years.. (xcept for the 1-day toerist-thing they got some old folks working there) and that were underground mines with explosions etc.. too dangerous and too expensive so they all closed.. Spain has good price/quality and more avaiable sizes (belgium only had 18x27cm and 18x30/20x30cm)+ quantity! Vermont is avaiable here, though very limited and long waiting time + xtreme expensive

hope u visited Mayen (germany) and Angers(france-paris) :-)
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admin
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 02:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, I visited Mayen, Germany and Angers, France and Bad Fredeburg in Germany. I also visited Wurzburg, Germany, where I was born. Haven't been there since I was 3.

Rather than lead, we use copper and stainless steel here in the U.S. We would never use rubber for flashing on a slate roof, although some copper vent pipe flashings do have a rubber sleeve.

Joe

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