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Joe Jenkins (Admin)
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey you slaters up there in the frigid areas of New England, what's the best way to fabricate and install a "snow apron" on a slate roof? This is where the drip edge or eaves of the roof are covered by metal up about two feet from the bottom of the roof. We are going to be making them out of 20 ounce copper. Do you normally cleat and solder them? Standing seam? What are common mistakes? Best methods for installation?

Joe Jenkins
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slateworks
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe , First install Ice & Water Sheild,just kidding -We are installing something similiar to a snow apron on a house in Ford city,Pa - first installed a copper gutter,with a roof apron,Installed fascia hangers made out of copper strapping, we then made a drip edge with a 1/2" lip(leave your copper panels hang over this lip by 1/2" and fold this over the edge of the drip edge,with hand tongs)the front of the drip edge was made long enough that it almost touches the top edge of the fascia hangers which covers the fasteners,,we made copper panels 18" wide by the length needed,fold a 1/2" hem on each edge-one up and one down(on a shop brake fold these up all the way to your stopping point)-so you can hook the panels together,install cleats every 8" or so,hook panels together,hammer down your seams,flux and solder...at the top under the slate you can also make a hem with cleats to hold the top in place.For the base we installed 30# felt covered with Red Rosin paper,we used just a few copper nails to hold paper in place. We have also installed standing seams,but I prefer the flat seam look on this area of the roof.We installed vertical panels. If the felt is any good under the slate try to cut it so you can slide new felt under the old felt and overtop of the top edge of copper panels, ICE DAM prevention(HA) or you could install Ice and Water shield (Double HA). Try to install your first panel as square as possible ,really helps if you have a long run -or you can make a center panel and go both ways, just make your hems the same on this panel, both up.Very similiar techniques as the flat lock seminar you had. good luck. ron - Walter should be able to help he probaply has installed a few -hundred?
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admin
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm waiting to hear from Walter. Thanks for your input, Ron. What you're saying is what I'm thinking, although starting square is a very good point. As is the rosin paper. My question is this: have you had any trouble soldering the joints on steep slopes?

Joe
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slateworks
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, I use a a plumbers type torch with aceteylene,I am not to good with the irons on the verticals,but the torch ,all though more of a liability with the open flame,works quite well for me,once you use one for a while and adjust your flame to the right temperature the solder flows and seals very well.Try to finish soldering about an hour before you leave the job,just to be on the safe side. Since you are using 20 oz copper I think your panels could be 24" long x 24"wide ?---- The job in ford city has a curve to the eave and no fascia board,all the other gutters on the house are K style so we had to match them,we made brackets that the gutter sits in and are fastened at all the rafters as are all of the fascia hangers,this is why we had to install a roof apron and a drip edge,we sort of matched what the first roofers had done 70 years ago.We could have made the drip edge and apron all in one piece of metal but I wanted to hide the fasteners since the edge of the roof is 7' of the ground and is the main entrance .
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Stephen J Taran
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe,

here in vermont all the roofers install pans just like standing seam. At the top of the seam they pound it down flat and lay the slate over the pans I know the few mistakes we have seen are not hanging the slate low enough and to thin of metal.
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ken
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Im in Vermont too, and I do a double lock standing seam at the eaves. The mistake that I often see, is when the roofers dont pay attention to the layout on time. They will start with a full panel at one end, work across, and there will be a 4 inch or so panel at the other end. That doesent look good. The way to do it is to find center, and either split a panel on the center, or have a seam in the center, making the end panels the same width, whichever way the end panels will be biggest.
Also, its can be tricky to bend the whole seam on a portable brake, especially if you are using 20 ounce. I would probably use an old fashion seaming iron, where you would only make two bends per panel, and then dress the seams over with the iron and a wooden mallet. Or bend the whole seam on a shop brake.
In order to tie in with the slates, measure down from the top edge of your panels whatever your coursing is plus four inches for headlap, and dress the seams down from there up. You will probably need a 3 inch or so strip of slate, cut to fit between the seams to kick your starter couse and first course up enough to clear the seam. This is not nailed into the copper. I adhere it with silicone, and duct tape holds it until the silicone sets.
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admin
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What about expansion joints? Do they need to be included in the design for snow aprons?
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ken
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not with a standing seam. Each panel can move a bit. I can also email you some photos of recent work if you want.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 09:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use a number of methods depending on customers wants,esthetics,visibility from below,etc.
Standing seams are usually well liked by the customer so we use them often.Ken and Ron have given most of the tricks needed-centering panels and such,but I differ a little with my lath work.I figure to cover the top 3" to 4' of my finished panel assembly so I snap a line on my prepped deck where my starter course is to begin.I nail my lath above this line to kick up the starter and first slate course after the panels are set.I fabricate a drip edge to cover the joint in the trimwork and leave myself a 3/4" edge to lock the bottom of each panel onto.It's secured into the deck with 1.5" copper nails.I start as Ron and Ken do in the middle or extrapolate so that my end panels are the same width.I lock each panel at the drip edge add one cleat midway for a 24" panel.At the top I cut the standing seam back from each panel as it's being installed so that at the height of the lath you have just two thicknesses which I overlap and solder.I turn down the uppermost 4" of the locked panel as you would if you were going over it.
In this way your lath is completely covered and no chance of leakage and the starter course and first course lay just the same as it would at the eaves with no metal used.There is no thick metal to go over every 20" or so.
If I use lock seam panels I install the lath the same way,underneath where it's covered from the weather.
We also have occasion to use Rivetted and soldered seams for our aprons where we use 8' sheets locked onto a drip edge overlap the sheets by several inches rivett every inch up the seam then solder each joint tight.When we line Boston pattern gutters we use a 3' sheet of metal and fabricate liner and apron from one sheet.This apron install is similar to that without the liner.In this method I use standing seam joints to act as expansion joints if the runs are longer than 40'
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admin
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's another question for you copper experts: How do you join the standing seam snow aprons at a valley? And when you have a valley dividing two sections of standing seam, do you start at the valley and work your way out, or do you start at the end and work your way in toward the valley, or do you start in the middle and work both ways?
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Walter Musson
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I take a measure of the distance from rake edge to lower edge of valley sheet to determine how to lay out my panels.It's easy to start from the rake and proceed towards the valley once you figure the width of your first panel.I use a 3/4" lock onto the drip edge I've fabricated and installed at the rake and work my panels towards the valley.I turn a 3/4" lock on the valley inwards on both sides up the height of the panels.
The last panel can be set in place to mark the lock line from the valley,add 3/4" ,mark cut and turn this lock.After installation I hammer this lock seak down flat and fully solder it.Same for the other side.As always there might be a reason you might want to start in the middle,but with accurate calculations at the start you can usually work toward the valley.
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admin
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks.

We installed one today - standing seam, 20 ounce, but when we reached the valley we installed a long cleat (about 20" long) in the new valley copper by riveting and soldering it under the exposed edge of the 8" exposure valley (i.e., the cleat was riveted and soldered 4" back from the center of the valley. The last pan then cleated to this long cleat (3/4" bend on last pan), fully hiding the cleat under the pan. The long cleat was a "Z" shaped cleat. It seemed to work well. Got the idea from the SMACNA manual. I'll try to put some photos on this site after we're done. It's hard to visualize, I know.

Joe
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Walter Musson
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 05:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe that accomplishes the same objective as I wrote you,except I save a step by making my lock directly from the valley sheet itself.
I can see your method clearly in my mind.
Which method did you use for your kicker for your starter slates?
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admin
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The hidden cleat allows for a final job where no solder joint is visible. It also allows for an exposed valley that is aligned with the upper valley where the slate roof is located (i.e. in this case, an 8" exposed valley all the way to the bottom). These are the only advantages I can see to doing it this way and they're both a matter of style.

The kicker for the starter slates was a continuous cant strip nailed over the upper cleats right up tight against the top of the standing seam pans. The starter row of slate (in this case new 12X20 mottled green and purple, left over from a job, and for a 9x18 hard black roof - plenty of extra starter) was laid sideways and allowed to hang down over the standing seam pans by 3-4". The starter slates had extra support by the standing seams, which we beat down at the top just enough to allow the starter slates to lay properly (i.e. in contact with the 1/2" cant strip). The first row of slates then laid over the starters. We used bibs and copper nails to install the first row, removing every 4th or so slate two courses up to prevent having an entire 1st row of bibbed slates. When we started, we were able to remove two courses of slates and run the copper up far enough to only have to return one row of slate. This gave us plenty of extra slates to work with to ensure a perfect match and allow us to repair the remaining roof. So far, so good.

The roof is about a 12:12, so there's plenty of drainage.

I've just thrown up on this website some photos of this at http://www.jenkinsslate.com/install_snow_aprons.htm

Joe
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Walter Musson
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe,
Thats a real nice looking job.
Stortz sells some nice System Rau tools which make the first and second locks real quickly and smooth if you form the panels with the bends already in place.I have their seaming irons too and they work well too.
Looks like you guys started at the valley and went to the rake.
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admin
Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Due to the way the pans are folded and the cleats installed, we had to work from right to left. So on the right side of the valley, we started at the valley. On the left side of the valley, we started at the rake. We measured the distances beforehand to make sure we weren't going to end up with a 3" pan or something at either end.

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