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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 35
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2013 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Basically, twist with the flow of the water and keep the twists out of each others way.
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
Senior Member
Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 256
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, March 01, 2013 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)



Andrew, Ben might be able to follow up with a shot of the pattern, but it's pretty simple

the angle is WAY exaggerated, to show the concept.

It gets a tiny dog-ear / pinch where the angle changes.

You can also do a sweep I suppose but I've always done it this way.
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Andrew (Andrew)
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Username: Andrew

Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2013
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2013 - 07:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Benjamin, could you offer some suggestions/photos on how to join two pieces of valley flashing where they merge at the top? I've read they can just be folded over each other but I've not been able to do this. I was able to cut, fold and solder it but if that's something that can be avoided, then I want to know how to do it. Plus it's obvious that you really know what you're doing when it comes to sheet metal work so any advice you could offer would be awesome.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 769
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 - 07:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Benjamin thanks. After I posted the question I figured that was the answer, more seams. Thanks again. Also if you have a picture of a valley can you post it?
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Lazeyjack (Lazeyjack)
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Username: Lazeyjack

Post Number: 77
Registered: 04-2012
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 - 04:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

there is a hell of a lot of guessing going on here METAL FATIGUE does not occur in buildings, metal fatigue is where there is considerable movement, like working back and forwards as in trying to break a piece of hi ten wire
Over many cycles, thousands of cycles
As in a failed spar in an aero wing
Please think before you post, well crap
best rgds
Stuart
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Lazeyjack (Lazeyjack)
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Username: Lazeyjack

Post Number: 76
Registered: 04-2012
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 955
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2013 - 08:56 am:
Metal moves! What do you expect?
please post what you understand, which is not metal, A properly designed weldment or(solder) will not fail, ever, as a shipbuilder I know this
Sure metal expands, contracts, we know this and it is easily allowed for
best rgds
Stuart
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
Intermediate Member
Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 34
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2013 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also consider, metal fatigue is more of an issue when you have three layers of metal. I use a grooving hammer in the center of the valley to create a tight radius instead of a crease in the areas where there are multiple layers. I do the same when standing up the seam.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2013 - 11:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The more metal you have in the twist point the harder it is to get a pretty seam. I would advise twisting more often, the tighter the radius. If you feel so inclined you can calculate the differences in length of your arcs and determine the amount of material to add.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 768
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2013 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Benjamin on your jig. Will the amount of metal that you bend over change depending on the radius. It looks like you have about 2" of material is that correct? If you did a barrel dormer would you make that more like 3"? Thanks.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 955
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2013 - 08:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Metal moves! What do you expect?
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 255
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2013 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is what happens to the soldered hips in a few years...



This one is in litigation now. installed by one of the largest "sheet metal" roofing companies in the region.

(Message edited by kwhord on February 23, 2013)
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2013 - 07:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kansas state house, Topeka.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 954
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2013 - 06:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where is that at? Nice scaffold job.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 29
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2013 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Full replacement of roof, facade, and ornamentation.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 951
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, February 22, 2013 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now by God, that is a project to be proud of! What do you have to do to it?
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Friday, February 22, 2013 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My current project.
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Lazeyjack (Lazeyjack)
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Username: Lazeyjack

Post Number: 75
Registered: 04-2012
Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2013 - 01:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

some nice stuff guys Missed y,all
happy to report even with 24 inches rain on my roof, and some driving horizontal, no leaks,
Now I am designing round 40 foot diametre, and hope to find a place to build in France
best rgds
Stuart
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
Senior Member
Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 254
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oh it is a z fold... okay that makes more sense.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2013 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kwhord, I don't quite know which corner you are referring to the dog ear corner. Are you asking about the resolution of the z fold into the back corner of the pan?
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2013 - 02:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For a double transverse seam fold your panel intersection like this. This will allow you to leave the seam legs standing. Pull up the roof to click together, push down the roof to lock, flatten seam with a beater board to lock tight. No more hand formed seams means cleaner and easier work.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2013 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The jig is quite simple. It is 2 round rods with one being a pivot point with a crank. Slide the metal between the rods and turn the crank.
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 252
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

been using origami foil paper to teach some of these seams to our new roofers...

will post the chimney and dormer mock-up tomorrow



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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 251
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Slate man, I thought you were asking about a jig to form the radius itself. I stand corrected though, that's clearly some type of jig there :)
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 767
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2013 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know the style and do here there myself mostly with copper and some in paint steel very hard. I have most of the tools and use them all the time. As for the jig its right there on the table for making the bends on the solder less flashing.
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 248
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2013 - 02:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ben, in this shot...

how in the world does that seam on the back resolve into that dog-eared corner?

trying to work that one out

looks amazing as usual!

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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 247
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2013 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He's doing german / euro style like Erno. I doubt there's a jig, slate man. Just really good pattern work and some tongs to form the break on site i'm guessing.

It's hard to do right, Ben is one of the best in the country.. probably the world!
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 766
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2013 - 06:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Benjamin can you give us some more pictures or a video link on your jig that makes your folds for your solder less flashing detail.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If it has slope there is almost always a way to avoid solder.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 22
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

no solder radius







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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

seamed in roof gutter

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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 07:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

seams and twists no solder no sealant.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 07:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

six

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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

five

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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

four

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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

three

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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 15
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 06:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

two

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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

here is one

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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 06:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

here is one

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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The curve seam has many uses. This particular detail is almost as old as the standing seam itself.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

here it is

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Catfeesh (Catfeesh)
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Username: Catfeesh

Post Number: 39
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Awesome stuff.
Before I found Joe's book, I was designing a stainless batten seam metal roof, but gave up on the details. Proper technique is not easily found by the public, and it often recommends rubber boots, sealants, foams etc.

Erno Ovari's work is really interesting, he sent me this solderless, sealantless chimney penetration awhile back... try to find this in a book (please?).

Another resource, (Modern Sheet Copper Practices):
http://ia700605.us.archive.org/7/items/modernsheetcoppe00amer/modernsheetcoppe00amer.pdf

copper chimney penetration
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 246
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2013 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is pretty good too!

http://www.metalcom.co.il/userfiles/files/Falzschablonen_englisch(1).pdf
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 243
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, February 08, 2013 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lookin' good Ben!
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

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Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 09:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you can find a copy a much better book is the tecu installation guide book. This book was put out by KME. I believe it is no longer in print but I am sure they would sell you a pdf download. Although I cannot vouch for the content or quality of said pdf as I have not seen it.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

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Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 09:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is basically a watered down version of a german text book. It shows good details but does not give any info about their proper integration. It is available from M.A.S.C.

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Joe (Joe)
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Username: Joe

Post Number: 763
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Benjamin - what is that book?
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

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Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hmm.
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Timtrain35 (Timtrain35)
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Username: Timtrain35

Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2011
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 08:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ben,

I don't believe he had a choice. In the details you listed, the panels are staggered at either side of the hip. In his scenario, they line up at the hip. I'm no metal expert, but i believe this was the only option outside of a cap.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

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Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

here it is put together
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

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Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

if they need to stand at the hip
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

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Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

standard hip/ridge detail
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

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Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 05:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

lay the seam over and seam together
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
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Username: Benjamin

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Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

truly unfortunate
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Blue_sky_roofing (Blue_sky_roofing)
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Username: Blue_sky_roofing

Post Number: 59
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SWEEET!
Hope the Homeowners have a couple of Rotweilers to patrol during the night!
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Tinner666 (Tinner666)
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Username: Tinner666

Post Number: 84
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've never seen hips soldered before. Interesting concept.

Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 936
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well done!
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Chris (Chris)
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 176
Registered: 09-2009
Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

some shots I have been meaning to post...






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