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John_chan (John_chan)
Senior Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 91
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're welcome. There's a number of SRCA/NSA members in Eastern PA like Leeland's or Tim Spillane or a multitude of others that have done lots of this type of work. I would suggest contacting one of them.
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Lv_pa (Lv_pa)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lv_pa

Post Number: 33
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, John_chan, I checked the "Copper in Architecture" manual and it pretty much agrees exactly with what you're saying. I'm not doubting anything you're saying, I'm just trying to understand the logic behind it. I have also ordered the "Copper and Common Sense" book and will be looking at that as well.
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 707
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good job John!
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John_chan (John_chan)
Senior Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 90
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John (Old School) is correct, cleats in the front and rear with expansion joints will hold the gutter down. As far as the idea of 3' sections, you should use a maximum length of 3' sections if the girth of your gutter is greater than 36" according to SMACNA and CDA (So, Tinner 666 is also correct.) The use of sections up to 10' is totally fine on gutters with less than a 36" girth. SMACNA is Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning Contractors of North America, and the CDA is the Copper Development Association based in New York, so it doesn't have to do with the climate, but more the girth of your gutter. We've installed copper from Massachusetts and Michigan to the North, down to Lousiana and Florida to the South. The methods outlined by SMACNA and the CDA are time tested for about a century now and have worked all over North America. CDA's manual "Copper and Common Sense" has a section on built in gutters, Section 9 or 10 I believe, that specifically states using only 3' sections for girths greater than 36", but you would still need expansion joints. Reading either one or both of these manuals will tell you exactly how to install your box gutter correctly.
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Lv_pa (Lv_pa)
Member
Username: Lv_pa

Post Number: 29
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, thanks for the responses here. If I'm understanding this correctly, one of the functions of the cleats at the bottom of the trough is to resist the expansion and contraction of the pans to some extent. This means that individual pans can undergo a tiny amount of buckling and stretching without pushing around the adjacent pans. This would be the reason for the recommendation that pans be 3' or shorter, though there seems to be a difference of opinion on whether this is really necessary. John_chan, could it be that this difference of opinion has to do with your working in a less extreme temperature climate than that of Tinner666?

I did notice also that the TR article on flat-lock soldering recommends 18" x 24" sheets for the same reason.
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John_chan (John_chan)
Senior Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 88
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 08:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We install 10' lengths riveted/locked together and install expansion joints as necessary according to SMACNA and CDA tables. We've installed thousands and thousands of feet of copper box gutters for decades, and this method works very well for us.

I've never seen a 10' run split that had expansion joints installed in the necessary places. They ususally split when:

1) locked joints aren't pre-tinned
2) riveted joints aren't fully sweat soldered with offset rivets every 1"
3) expansion joints aren't installed as they should be
or
4) the copper is installed in extreme temperatures and broken to exactly fit the wood around it so that it can't move.
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Tinner666 (Tinner666)
Senior Member
Username: Tinner666

Post Number: 82
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh. I cleat all pans in the bottom and on the slopes.

Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.
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Tinner666 (Tinner666)
Senior Member
Username: Tinner666

Post Number: 81
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I have now been talking to some people who are saying it's easier to use longer pans (10' - 20') to save time soldering and minimize potential points of failure at the seams."

I get leak calls on these all the time. Latest was Fri. Some just split open at the 5' mark (Midpoint). And all seams had opened.
You need fully sweated seams, 3' long or shorter.
Here's a link to some of mine stuff and some details of soldering. http://www.albertsroofing.com/Solder%20Details.htm

Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 705
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, September 09, 2011 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It should stay put very well. If you install any expansion joints, they will also hold it down.
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Lv_pa (Lv_pa)
Member
Username: Lv_pa

Post Number: 28
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Friday, September 09, 2011 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello,

In the past, I have had box gutter linings installed on two sections of my house, and each time the contractors made 3' long pans and soldered them together at seams. I believe (not sure since I didn't watch them) that at each seam there is a clip fastening the underside of the pan to the wood below.

I am now starting on a new section and unfortunately, neither of the previous contractors is available any more. I have now been talking to some people who are saying it's easier to use longer pans (10' - 20') to save time soldering and minimize potential points of failure at the seams.

But if there are fewer (or no) seams, there are also fewer (or no) chances to fasten the underside of the copper to the wood. Is this a problem? The copper will be hooked over a locking strip at the top of the crown molding, and will also be cleated down where it goes part way up the roof slope. So, I'm told, there won't be any tendency for the lining to pop out. Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
LVPA

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