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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
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Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 143
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 06:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Re-read the original post. The roof does not leak. Icicles build up and, when they fall, do damage to the roof. No need for a roof contractor if the icicles are stopped.

Your analogy to telling a customer with a leak to use a bucket is flawed in that suggests a roofer would not address a roofing issue. Do you have a background in building science or thermo that qualifies you to make recommendations for insulating a furnace in an attic? I know I sure don't.

Don't forget the KISS Method for solving problems:

Keep
It
Simple
SlateMan
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 600
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 05:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Old School I know Ward and I think this has just turned in to a good debate. If it isn't and we feel we crossed a line well then I would of gotten a call from him or I would of call Ward. I have him on cell phone speed dail.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 442
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 09:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can't you just feel the "love"?

I have built cold roofs too and that is also an option. We could also use the blue tarp method, and the tear it all off and install ice and water shield method. Another one I like is the bucket of "flashing" method.

Pixlaw is the one that started this discussion and once we have given him some suggestions, I think we should get out of his way.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 599
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 05:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I just not one to just deal with a problem, I like to fix them. That is why we are roof contracters is to fix the problems. If you want to use a rake fine, but should I suggest a bucket to the next client that calls for a slate repair that is leaking. Ya, I can say just deal with it and empty the bucket a few time a week during a rain. Or better yet I will tell them make the leak into a water fall down to a stream, rigth through your house, just deal with it. I would rather see the problem fixed, no matter the price.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 440
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Come on guys; get along!
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
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Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 142
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Liam: At this point I'll just say I don't know what you're talking about and leave it at that. My points were not directed at you or Pixlaw. Just simple, generalized observations.

Let me summarize:

(1) A snow rake, for $50, will remove the snow that is melting and causing icicles. Problem solved;

(2) Boxing in, insulating, and re-directing heat will cost thousands and IS NOT guaranteed to work. Period; and,

(3) People--generally--are looking for systems that require zero upkeep/maintenance. It's our nature.

You're right: Jay Peak does sell less expensive season passes than Sunday River. And it's close to home, no?
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 598
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 05:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As Pixlaw said moving and pipe would cost way more then that. So I suggesting options on fixing it rather then dealing with it. I don't see how fixing problems have any thing to do with immediate gratification. I live in VT where you have to shovel snow, to do any thing there. No see that where you are wrong, I an the guy that puts the build in gutter back in, not out.
Most newer house have all kinds of stuff in the attic that don't have problems, and have that same over-engineering in them I am talking about. Its a old house, that has been change because of space or other issue and just need to be finished to handle this unit.

Why go to Sunday River when you can buy a pass at Jay Peck for $650.00.
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
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Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 141
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 06:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How much do you think a solution like that would cost, Slate Man? It certainly sounds very expensive. Who would guarantee success? The HVAC/carpenter/insulator or the roofer? How would the cost compare to moving the furnace altogether ($3500 vs $5000?)

I favor cost effective solutions that will work (no snow = no icicles.) As a nation we've lost patience and need immediate gratification. God forbid one needs to pull a heavy snow load off where the icicles develope a few times each winter. Maybe we could just cover over the built-in gutters because they're a pain to deal with, too.

The money spent over-engineering in the attic could've sent everyone to Sunday River for weeks of snowboarding.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 597
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 05:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think you can fix this, with a little work. There is no way you will be moving this. I would suggest getting some contracters (maybe even the company that put the heater in) over there to come out, to build walls and insulate the walls and ceiling(rubber roof area). Have a company insulate the ducks and pipes. Then get a roofer/contractor to add a vent out the flat roof. This should isolated the different air and keep the steeper slate roof cold.

I don't know about you if I out in the snow, I am not shoveling it. I snowboarding in it. Rakes are for your garden!
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
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Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 140
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, April 19, 2010 - 03:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After looking at your pix I dropped down and read your initial post. Spend $50 on a decent snow rake with extensions. During the six +/- times a year you get a big snowfall, use the rake (from the ground) to pull the snow off the eaves of the slate roof. Problem solved, inexpensively, with a little effort by you.

Keep an eye on your roof ... if you see icicles forming break them with the rake BEFORE they get big enough to do damage. Few roofs are without maintenance; a little vigilance on your part will go many miles.
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Pixlaw (Pixlaw)
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Username: Pixlaw

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, April 19, 2010 - 08:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To make this easier for me to describe, since I can't get decnt attachments in the post, I'm attaching links to pictures on photobucket which will show what I'm talking about. Here's a link to the drawing of the roof systems, so you can get an overview.

<img>

First is a jpg of the attic interior, with the furnace, showing the furnace directly under the juncture of a flat roof (rubber? some kind of plastic) with the slanting slate roof
<img>

here's a picture of the exterior showing where some of the ice fall
<img>

and one of the other side of the house showing where the other ice falls
<img>

One question I have is whether an ice belt would actually work, given that it would be installed on the part of the slate roof which extends over bare air (see last two pictures to see what I mean) for a distance of about 2 feet or so.
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Bstinelli (Bstinelli)
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Username: Bstinelli

Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2009
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

almost sounds like one of those houses they close the box gutters and use shingle on the new section and slide under the slate. alot of that in pittsburgh furnace in the attic if you have a coil for air in there and it sprouts a leak man you got serious damage
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Etm (Etm)
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Username: Etm

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2010
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm installing a new slate roof and there is a concave section of roof on the one side where it goes from a 6:12 to 12:12 pitch in a distance of about 11 feet. The original slate roof had 9x18 slate on the entire roof including the concave section. Would it not be benefical to use a shorter length slate on the curved section, so the slate lay flatter on the roof. Any opinions or suggestions on the shorter length would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 592
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 06:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can you get us a picture of the attic.

You may need to put copper or steel snow belt in the area of the iceing. This will not fix all the problems, but with your buget it could fix the ice build up.

Is it possible to add proper vent and inslation to only the area of the roof that is icing up.

If you build a room and box in all in you will still need to vent the heat back into the house or out side that will build up in that room.

What kind of heater, do you feel you use alot of gas or oil.
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Pixlaw (Pixlaw)
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Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Guys -

Forgive me if my semi-innocent question opened up a whole can of worms about the quality of workmanship in this country. But remember where I'm coming from: I can do a bunch of different tasks, but roof repair isn't one of them. I have a house which was so thoroughly re-muddled that fixing all the stupid decisions would take 25 years and much more money than I have (I don't have 25 years, either...I'll be happy if I live another 15). The purchase of the house itself just about cleaned me out, and then I had to spend upwards of 5 figures to get the slate roof repaired, rather than just having it ripped up and replaced with 'architectural' shingles, as so many friends and acquaintances suggested.

So I've dropped a ton of money so far, and I'm trying to figure out how to make the house work without spending another $50,000. If I re-locate the furnace (which, in a perfect world I could), I'd have to re-run all of the second floor heat ducts, and then re-run all of the cold water runs going through the attic. And, of course, figure out how to cram the second furnace into my basement. Frankly, I can't afford it. And given the layout and the size of the attic, I doubt if I can somehow enclose the attic furnace in its own little 'hot room' which would reduce the heat making the snow melt and drip.

Please don't mistake me: I'm NOT going to remove my beautiful slate roof.

What I was asking was whether there was any solution you all could suggest for how to ice-proof the ugly lower asphalt shingle roof, whether by replacing it with another roofing material or otherwise. I'm going to be getting a little insurance money for a roof repair and thus it would behoove me to use that money to actually fix the roof that's damaged, and in so doing maybe make it less likely to fail in the future.

And finally, on the whole subject of passing on problems to the next guys, I'll point out that it's an American (hell, a human) tradition. I've seen enough older houses which were damaged by stupid or ill thought decisions made in 1903 or 1875 or 1924. My last house was a 1924 Colonial Revival in which the original carpenters just butchered some of the gorgeous doors and woodwork they installed.
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Threedogs (Threedogs)
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Username: Threedogs

Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

'exactly my point, it's really bad that we've thought things like this, even worse that we've done it, unspeakable that we brag about it but the lowest of low levels that the rest of us accept this as a legitimate excuse for caring ONLY about ourselves!!! '

I'm not sure I understand what you've said. I was saying IF he's going to live there a long time it's in his best interest to fix whatever problems at the source. It come down to simple economics. If he intends to sell in a few years it would seem crazy to put tens of thousand of dollars into the house IF he'll never get it back. Most people don't have that kind of money to throw away.

As for your ' how can folks talk like this without feeling exposed as self seeking and a threaght to our great nation??? ' I honestly don't understand where your coming from.
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Branden_wilson (Branden_wilson)
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Username: Branden_wilson

Post Number: 93
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"If I were you and I were going to live there a long time I would bite the bullet putting together a plan to fix it right once and for all."

exactly my point, it's really bad that we've thought things like this, even worse that we've done it, unspeakable that we brag about it but the lowest of low levels that the rest of us accept this as a legitimate excuse for caring ONLY about ourselves!!!

haven't you ever been the next guy? don't you see this on a generational level right now in our country?!?! how can folks talk like this without feeling exposed as self seeking and a threaght to our great nation???

REAL SLATER
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Threedogs (Threedogs)
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Post Number: 10
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Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can appreciate the problem. I live in an 120 year old house and have been re slating it for the past six years. Only three more years and hopefully I'll be done. I also have a curved veranda where I replaced the shingles with CertainTeed because of a 4/12 pitch, but maybe should have gone to metal.

If I were you and I were going to live there a long time I would bite the bullet putting together a plan to fix it right once and for all. I'd start with re plumbing the second floor, or getting the furnace out of the attic. It might be possible relocated it somewhere on the second floor, or worst case putting it in the basement. S.M. also had a good idea to isolate the furnace and plumbing. It's worth looking into, and easier than moving everything, but if you do it right the first time in phases someday it will be done and fixed once and for all.

Having tried to straighten out decades of remuddling on my house, my experience has been to fix the problems at the source. Trying to take shortcuts usually only leads to more money and time spent down the road to fix it right.
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Branden_wilson (Branden_wilson)
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Username: Branden_wilson

Post Number: 91
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

you see, it's not the slate afterall!! just more foolish building practices and once again slate becomes the scapegoat. it never ceases to amaze me how many folks will buy a slate roof without really believing in it. they like to show it by installing back up plans like underlayments or you'll catch it when they say things like "slate is brittle". do you know what slate is? here's a great video on the subject http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4W9O-N6kmg&playnext_from=TL&videos=Q9sWa7dPvHU


btw.... try taking what YOU consider a strong stone (most shallow puddlers would choose granite) and work it into the dimensions of a slate shingle and you will find out just how strong it really is. also you will find it takes a great deal of work and equipment just to acheive such a dimension.

oh yeah and there aren't any REAL slaters out there that would suggest plastic cause stone doesn't work.

REAL SLATER
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 590
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 07:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have seen this before, it one of those thing most peolpe don't do. Can you move it? Or box in the pipes with insulate and then the same with the furnace but, more of a room you could walk into isolateing the heat from the rest of the area. Is it under or near this same area its iceing. Have yours been covered up?

In alot of bigger houses they build small rooms that are sheet rocked and isolated from the remaining vented area. Most of these house have build in galde or in roof vents.
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Pixlaw (Pixlaw)
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Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Second problem with venting the attic is that when he put an furnace up there, he also ran bunch of cold water pipes throuhg the attic to distribute to the second floor. So if I really vent the attic, the cold water pipe might freeze and flood the second floor. It really is one of those "fix one problem, cause another" kind of things. That's why I'm focused on making the lower roof as ice-resistant as possible, since it
s the most accessible fix and one which implicates the fewest other systems.

any experience with the imitation slates, which look pretty resilient and thus might resist the falling ice?
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 433
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 08:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aha! I was wondering why it was ok for 100 years and now there are more problems. A furnace in the attic. Is there any way to really vent the attic? A power vent fan on one gable end with an intake vent on the other side? If that could be done and it came on any time the temprature rose to about freezing, it would keep it cold enough in the attic to stop the ice buildup. The snow would still be there, but when it fell as snow to the lower roof it would not do any damage to speak of. Just a thought!

How many times have we seen people "solve" one problem and then end up with an entirely new set of problems when working on their homes?
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Pixlaw (Pixlaw)
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Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 08:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the responses so far. As to the attic, as Old School thought, there's no way I can see to make it better. First, it's the old style stick support for the slates, and thus I can't really insulate the ceiling of the attic, only the floor, which has already been done. Secondly, the previous owner put a furnace (for the second floor of the house) in the attic, so there's a pretty significant heat source up there which will always be throwing off enough heat to melt the snow/ice and thus cause drips.

That's why I'm assuming that there's always gonna be some ice coming down from the slate roof, and I'm thus concentrating on how to make the lower roof as ice resistant as possible.

As to Stephen's comment, I'm in Kent, only about 10 miles NE of Akron, so I should try to track down Chris Paulin. I've been using Gil Shepard's slate roof company so far, and I'm generally happy with his work, but it never hurts to get a second opinion.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 589
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would suggest looking at your venting/insulation in this area of iceing and the attic for correct installation. As far as the roof, that is a little up to what you want to see up there and buget. If it was my house I, don't mind standing seam metal 24 gauge but you still need to look into the iceing. Putting snow guards may not be fixing the problem.
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Stephen (Stephen)
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Post Number: 7
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Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 06:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am sure the original poster knows this-but for the benefit of the rest of the readers-N.E Ohio can encompass a wide range of snow conditions. Akron is about the southern edge of the Lake Erie snow belt amd ordinarily we don't get quite the sudden accumulation the O.P. is describing- but move just a mile or so north and northeast and the difference can be amazing. the difference between Chagrin Falls and Akron( weatherwise)- can be like the difference between Buffalo,N.Y and Lexington,Ky.---LOL.

If the poster can be more precise with the location we might be able to suggest a few other people. Paulin is here in Akron- but if the Poster is more N.E. of here there is at least one other semi regular on this board that might be able to help as well.

This was a VERY bad winter in this area-we hit 80 degrees this past weds-and I saw snow yesterday! We did an extensive tile roof repair last week similar to what the OP describes( it's the one below the Epdm roof getting the snow gaurds)-and we will be doing similar repairs on 2 other slate roofs this coming week and the next week-- VERY bad winter:<)

Best wishes, stephen
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 431
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2010 - 09:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is a tough one. If the house is 100 years old, I am sure that it is not insulated well and there is heat getting up into the attic which causes the snow to melt to form the ice. There is probably no good way to vent the attic either, which would help to minimalize the ice buildup. Whatever you install on the lower roofs is going to be damaged by the ice falling.

Chris Paulin is in Akron, and he may be a good one to talk to for a suggestion. I think that would be where I would start. good luck, and keep us informed
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Pixlaw (Pixlaw)
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Posted on Friday, April 09, 2010 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's the problem: I've a 2 and a half story century house with wrap-around 1 story porches and bump-outs. The top roof is all slate, which is in pretty good shape, with no gutters. The lower roofs on the porches and bump-outs are asphalt shingles, and are pretty old at that. all winter long, I've got big icicles growing down from the slate roof. Eventually, these icicles break and fall. This year, the icicles punched several holes in the lower shingled roofs. Temporary patches have been done, but I'm sure this will happen again. It's northeast Ohio, so we always have several snowstorms which drop a foot or more snow in one pass.

So what to do? should I install ice guards on the slate? My slate contractor has said that although they prevent ice from coming down, sooner or later they cause the slates to break under the pressure of the ice catching on them. One friend has suggested replacing the lower asphalt roof with imitation slates, on the grounds that they'll hold up to the large spear-like icicles plummeting down from the upper roof. another has suggested a metal roof replacement for the same reasons. A third has suggested using real slates, although I would think that slate is brittle enough that a 60 pound icicle would just break any chunk of slate it would hit. And using real slate would present underlayment problems, since right now the asphalt roof underlayment is some sort of ply or other whole roof sheathing.

What are your thoughts?

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