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Tinner666 (Tinner666)
Senior Member
Username: Tinner666

Post Number: 63
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought that's what 'Stack' meant, but couldn't conceive that it was allowed/accepted, or even used. Wow!

I think I'd go for 1" minimum from the edge for the nail holes. Many slate roofs here have 6 x 12 slate.
Now, let me tell you MY story. I've repeated it so often, I just C&P it now.

Keep in mind, we were looking for a solution to one specfic roof/issue!

Back in the early 1980's, my brother and I
contracted to do a Cedar Shake job for a GC.
It was supposed to be a shed roof with 4/12
pitch. We thought we could double felt it
and said it could make it 10 years or so,
with a short exposure.
Covenants, building permit, and the building inspector insisted no metal, slate, or shinlge roofs would be allowed, nor would Bur, EPDM, PVC, etc.
Well, well, well!
The height of the house, in regards to the 2nd. floor, and it's windows and the owners'refusal to change the window sizes, had caused some changes to the original plans. And they had extended the room a bit farther out to boot.
We go out there to do the job in western Henrico Co. and find out they have built a 2/12 shed roof with 2-3 skylights. We said it couldn't be done as spec'd. We had a few meetings with them and the Building Inspector,( B.I. said he couldn't pass cedar either) HOA and the owners. Cedar it would be!
We said we've have to think about it.
I went to a major roofing company that we did a lot of sub work for in between my own jobs. The owner told me about Grace I&S shield. I contacted Grace and got as much info as possible. I took the info to the job to meet with everybody. I gave it all to B.I. and HOA Code enforcement group. I said we may be able to provide an exception to the rules/code by using it. I told them we would have to treat it like a standard built-up roof with the material lapped
correctly and openings waterproofed.
Lo and behold, the B.I. comes back and said it was a great idea and everybody, was happy except us. We only gave a 2 year warranty btw.
We weren't in tune with all ventilation issues at the time, but GC added soffit and cross ventilation vents. We did the job and got top marks.
About a week later, we got a letter from
Henrico Building and Code Dept. saying that
they had made countywide changes and I&W would be installed on every job henceforth.

And they further stated it would be
statewide within months.

Does anybody want to guess where this led us?

I'm sorry if I caused anybody here any grief. Back in the day, I still believed roofing, building, and common sense went together without a 'one size' fits all mentality.

Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 367
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, I imagine if you shot them, they would never do it again. I would call for about three warning shots to the face first though!
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 120
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, "stack bond" is a masonry term. It refers to when alternating courses, in this case slate, align. In my opinion, it should be criminal for somebody to do that on a roof. Not a felony or misdemeanor, a violation which means a fine. Here is what I'm talking about; something VERY simple:

HEADLAP:
4:12 slope < 8:12 ... 4"
8:12 slope < 20:12 ... 3"
Slope 20:12 + ... 2"

SPACING:
1/2" max; no minimum

ALIGNMENT:
Alternating courses of slate laid so that joints do not align; all joints shall be offset not less than 3" from any underlying joint (exclusion: slate less than 8" wide)

NAIL HOLES:
Min 2 holes, machine or site punched. Holes 4" from upper end, 1.5" from side edges.

And that's about it. Maybe add the piece about calculating nail length. Then, when somebody is blowing a roof in with inadequate (or negative) lap, BANG ... a violation. "Stack" bond? BANG ... a violation.
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 366
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 08:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Education.....At one time, we were ALL "newbies" and we ALL made mistakes installing slate. I would imagine that very few of us started with slate. We installed shingles or rubber or built-up roofing first. Let's see, Water runs down hill!

We are "taught?" in school NOT to think. Use machines. A calculator, spell check, a food processor, a nail gun, a forklift, a computer. There is NOTHING wrong with this. However, if you don't know the basics behind the machine, you have no way of knowing whether the results you are getting are accurate. Ever see a cashier at the store when the computer goes down? Even better, hand them a large bill and some small change to get exact change back and see what they do. The ones that would give you back the exact change without blinking an eye would probably make good slaters. They can still think.

If a person can't "see" the whole picture before starting a project; whatever that project entails, then the details that they omit or screw up mean nothing to them. The more detail you can "see" before you start, the more passionate you will be about getting it right, in the first place.

The "Neanderthals" or "tarmites" or "hacks" as we see them, have nothing invested in the "art" and see only a paycheck; period. We see them soiling our future. All the laws in the world can't change that. we need to take the high ground and reach the people that make the decisions. We must first do that by letting them know that we are here. What better way than on the internet and on this forum, and on one roof at a time?
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Tinner666 (Tinner666)
Senior Member
Username: Tinner666

Post Number: 62
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 08:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BTW. What is 'stack bond"? Keyway over keyway? Not familiar with the phrase.

Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.
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Tinner666 (Tinner666)
Senior Member
Username: Tinner666

Post Number: 61
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 07:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Minimum of 3" head and side laps. No restrictions other than common sense to increase the headlap as necessary. No restrictions on using larger slates to break and supplement the patterns along eaves,valleys, etc.
Ban the use of Eg or even Hdd nails. Spec that I&S shield be limited to certain conditions such as low-slope, maybe valleys and transitions 'As Warranted'. It could still be crazy.

Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 119
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, January 04, 2010 - 10:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John... What you stated is pretty much all I'm talking about. Minimal, very basic standards. Under current code, stack bond is ok. That is just crazy!
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 365
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, January 04, 2010 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mohawk, One of the problems is that there are so many different variations with slate BECASUE it is a natural product, it will be difficult. The headlap issue is right on. Minimum standards should be the length - 3" divided by 2. No question. Minimum side lap is already 3". No question. Those are probably 60% of the leakage right there. Over or under nailing, poor flashing details, the wrong decking and not enough plastic roofing cement gobbed in the valleys, against the walls,under the slates, on top of the ridges, around the corners, over and under the nails, on the scaffold,......wait a minute, that is the wrong paragraph from a spec on one of the last slate jobs I bid in Kalamazoo.

It is a problem, and I am not sure how to solve it. Education for sure! Wish us all luck! good post!
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 118
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, January 04, 2010 - 09:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The real elephant in the room here (when it comes to regulation) is that its a proportional reaction. When you tell me that somewhere like South Florida has regultions to the umpteenth degree that's because people got screwed--wholesale--and now you're living with the aftermath. I'll bet with every hurricane to pass through and wreak havoc more and more people got screwed by s#it work from garbage contractors.

Government reaction? Impose stricter regulations, etc, in an effort to protect consumers (aka constituents.) Government is a many headed hydra with limited brain waves. Responses are reactioanary, at best. There's no "F____ the consumers who don't successfully screen their builders" mindset. Miami-Dade regs and testing on roof coverings are probably a response to the many metric tons of non-slate roofing garbage that floats in the Gulf of Mexico. Not a direct attack on slate... slate's a casualty of war if you will, collateral damage.

Here's the REAL question to ask: When a slate roof in Miami-Dade, or Santa Barbara, ends up in court because of poor workmanship, what is the standard referenced or quoted? Is it "Slate Roofs" circa 1926? Is it "The Slate Roof Bible?" SOMETHING is being used as an implement to determine whether or not the right thing was done.

WHAT is that standard?

I read the Miami-Dade NOA Branden posted. Aside from the requirement that every unit bears the same sticker or stamp, I don't have a problem with what they are requiring. Read the whole thing before you respond ... do any of you have a problem with it ... SPECIFICALLY **WHAT** do you have an issue with?

Gov't is ALREADY invloved in slate roofing ... THAT is what building codes are. I am advocating lobbying and efforts to influence/meld/expand those codes appropriately. Other roof coverings are produced my manufacturers who can provide installation directions ... those directions can be blanketed into code.

To argue that slate needs no standard is ridiculous. To say that "we know what we are doing, tough s#it for the homeowner who hires a bum" is not part of an industry-advancing mindset.



(Message edited by olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration on January 04, 2010)
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 117
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, January 04, 2010 - 08:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nothing like the mention of further gov't regulations to get the blood of American men boiling. Outstanding!

Give me a moment to backtrack and clarify my position. I'm not trying to complicate things or suggest the creation of a law that will be an inch thick of paper...

Simple things, like: length of slate minus headlap, divided by two is the reveal. You know, stack bond is no good. A couple sentences; not necessarily an elaborate doctrine that ties hands.

Then, the next time somebody wants to bitch about how they lost a job to some clown, and post pictures of the butcher's work, we can ask what he did about it. No code "whatsoever" means any old bulls#i+ can fly and nobody can do a damn thing about it. Maybe that's cool with you guys ("buyer beware") but I don't like it.
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Old_school (Old_school)
Senior Member
Username: Old_school

Post Number: 359
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 06:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We certainly don't need more laws. We also sure as hell don't want the government telling us how to install slate. Name ONE thang that they have taken over that is better than it was before!

We do have more taxes though don't we?
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Branden_wilson (Branden_wilson)
Senior Member
Username: Branden_wilson

Post Number: 77
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

here is the notice of acceptance or NOA for greenstone slate company. it is a felony to install a product here that doesn't have one of these plus you can't get a permit without one. this has to be turned in with the 2" thick permit pack and this is what the city bus driver,oh i mean "roof inspector" has in their hand when they come to inspect a slate roof. unless you're a big guy, in that case you're exempt. i wish you guys would come here and try to start a roofing company and then install a slate roof and pass inspection, that is if you could sell a slate roof here. if you did try, i think more of you would want to shake my hand rather than cuss me out.

http://www.miamidade.gov/buildingcode/library/productcontrol/noa/05120801.pdf

there it is, regulation at it's best! right?
http://www.youtube.com/user/REALSLATER
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Branden_wilson (Branden_wilson)
Senior Member
Username: Branden_wilson

Post Number: 76
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i agree tinner, the codes here are very strict but it's not helping at all. every slate roof goes through 5 inspections before it's finaled but all of the roofers never should be passing these inspections. once you're in, you're in... the inspectors NEVER inspect the big guys. they pull up, you run the 50 page permit out to them and they sign it from their car. meanwhile permits cost in the thousands here to "protect" homeowners from this type of behavior. but the small guys get inspected with a microscope. kind of a mafia type thing here really. when i bring photos to homeowners to show them their roofer has not only ruined their roof but violated code in the process, i always get shooed away with anger. even more so when i bring those photos into the building department. i make calls, send letters and emails to tallahassee on the subject and i get nothing. really frustrating.

many folks wanna live in a police state but this is always open to severe corruption. the guys who own the biggest companies and who manufacture products like roof cement are the ones sitting on these boards deciding what becomes "code". when i was selling metal roofs (big mistake) i had to deal with these crooks all the time. like this city coral springs wouldn't allow metal on anything residential. people were on 1 to 2 year waiting lists for concrete tile and metal was selling fast because it was available. turns out the one guy in coral springs who kept turning metal down owned one of the only ACCEPTED concrete tile plants. hmmmm? oh yeah and we are only allowed to install miami dade approved products here as well and many good products don't have the coin to get that kind of approval. buckinghams, welsh, ncb, forget about it! all illegal products in south florida. and i must clarify SOUTH florida, to all the folks who have been to disney world and think all of florida is like orlando. south florida is like new york city. palm beach, broward and dade counties. the rest of the state has more relaxed regulations.

btw there was an explosion of metal roofing here 5yrs ago which has all but died thanks to them severely fading and failing already. my friends who only do clay are having the same trouble. many of their "old school" techniques for installing the hand bent tiles are being outlawed. the big guys are now taking roofs that were once mortar set and replacing the mortar with spray foam (just like great stuff).

these foam clowns came to town and blamed all of the concrete tile failures on the mortar and started selling the crap out of their foam. now the foam roofs are having all kinds of problems and we haven't even had a tropical storm! good luck trying to get the truth out there though, we don't have millions invested in our products and billionaire partners, they shut us up REAL quick every time!

it's like trying to stop a walmart from coming to town. most of the public is so ignorant that all they see is the sales pitch, the personal convenience. they still don't even realize these stores devastate our economy when that is clear FACT. so not only do you have the paid off goons in the high places, you've got a dumbed down public that's begging to get screwed!

i don't know the answers, i'm still trying to find a handful of folks to help fight these battles rather than be a part of the problem but no one seems to care about the big picture. one thing's for sure though, giving more power over to the people who sell us everything is not wise.

i believe we need to focus on educating the dumbed down public with FACTS. number one we can lead by example by not buying from the big boxes, not selling their products, and certainly not installing them. if we could unite as slaters and stop sleeping with the enemy i believe we could bring back a little demand for not only just slate but slaters too. this may not give us the short term satisfaction we are so used to but it will improve the big picture for us and future generations and me personally, i'm just gettin started so i look at a big picture and so do my children. it's very unfortunate the past generations have sold out our trade, but instead of saying " if you can't beat em, join em", we can stop perpetuating the madness and get our trade back!

FREEEEEEEEEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/user/REALSLATER
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Tinner666 (Tinner666)
Senior Member
Username: Tinner666

Post Number: 55
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I hate for gov to set any codes. look at Fla. You don't even need flashing there. Just go to any shingle, tile, or slate jobsite there and be sure to have more roof cement than tile, shingles, or slate.
It has nothing to do with craftsmanship and weeding the hacks. They're trying to dumb everything down.
Much of what I do gets frowned on by BI's because I don't always follow their book of half arsed rules.
A copper roof got delayed for months because they wanted me to use Velux gasketed flashing kit around the skylights intead of soldered, or run to lenght pans! I'd just as soon fly under their radar.
[url]http://rcs.si-sv2628.com/show_album_photo.asp?userid=30&AlbumID=92&file=593&s=0[/url]
According to them, it wasn't right to run panels in a manner to make everything 'self-flashing. My penetrations don't have front corners that need soldering. They wanted me to either use the step flashing kit, or the one that has a channel and directs the water under the panels to hopefully exit onto the roof down from the skylights.
Heck with gov. regulation. Just ID the hacks and toss them off the roof.

Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.
<A HREF="http://www.albertsroofing.com" TARGET="_blank">Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.</A>
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
Senior Member
Username: Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration

Post Number: 115
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 07:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The building codes specific to slate roof coverings need to be augmented or enhanced to ensure that proper installation occurs or that those who fail to meet standards are penalized. Consider NY State's code:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/st/b400v07/st_ny_st_b400v07_9_sec005_par0 43.htm

Other than requiring headlap, min 15" wide valleys and two nails, not much else is required. But when you look at the code for asphalt shingles, the detail is greater as well as the requirement specific to manufacturers' installation instructions. And these instructions are VERY detailed.

No such instructions exist for slate.

Without knowing for sure, I will speculate that building codes and enforcement of same evolved AFTER slate's heyday. Hence, code for new roofs is sparce; code for slate/flashing repair is nil. Reference to the NSA's "Slate Roofs" (1926; 2009) in a pitch to beef up code may be the right angle.

So, I guess the question is:

If one were to lobby for enhanced codes, what would be the universal standards that would be included in the language?

Or might a better approach be to get "Slate Roofs" anointed as THE standard (vis-a-vis, "the manufacturers instructions") ???

Then, when a roof is installed improperly, code enforcement officers can be directed to violations by knowledgable slaters, homeowners, etc?

And, is this an undertaking for the NSA? SRCA? Both?

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