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Benjamin (Benjamin)
Intermediate Member
Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 36
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2013 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think what is happening here is that we are working from different code books. I think this could be a good starting point for info exchange regarding sheet metal system requirements within different sets of code.
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Cpaulin (Cpaulin)
Intermediate Member
Username: Cpaulin

Post Number: 32
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, February 25, 2013 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No problems with the beauty of the work, or the skillful one piece folded valley.

In a northern clime though, with significant snow & ice accumulations, the standing seam panel used in a zero slope situation (as on the top of a barrel dormer and near the adjoining main roof slope) that will catch & hold at times several feet of snow and ice, is not recommended.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
Member
Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Friday, February 22, 2013 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I assume you are referring to the smacna guidelines for transverse panel joints. There are none in this picture. What I have shown in this picture is a one piece radius valley. If you wish, check the "copper copper copper" thread for the basic principle. This is relevant because removing two panels and replacing them with one creates a panel that is too wide to be in compliance with wind load regulations. The method that I have posted illustrates a way to satisfy both criteria Clearly there are many ways to do good work. A soldered valley can work quite well in many situations. ALL of my work is in accordance with DIN.
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Cpaulin (Cpaulin)
Member
Username: Cpaulin

Post Number: 28
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2013 - 11:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ben's work is beautiful, and may work for southern climates, but is not correct for snowy northern climes: the zero or low slope (<4/12 slope) areas should be flat-lock soldered copper.
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Benjamin (Benjamin)
New member
Username: Benjamin

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2013
Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hmmm.
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Joe Jenkins
Senior Member
Username: Joe

Post Number: 202
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Howard - My guess is that the soldering job was faulty from the beginning and that's why the joints are failing so soon. It may be possible to replace the copper where the failing joints are located. I'm including some images that may give you some ideas. It's hard to say for sure what may work in your case without actually seeing the dormers themselves. The bottom photo is a situation where there were dozens of these barrel dormer roofs with leaking solder joints - we just replaced the copper on the top of the dormers. The work was done by Paulin Slate in Akron, Ohio (I was the consultant on the project). Note that we did the same thing even on the gable dormer in the rear of the photo. The copper, in general, was still good, but the joints along the roofline were tarred over, so we replaced the copper only in those specific locations.

copper barrel dormer

copper barrel dormer

copper barrel dormer
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Walter Musson
Intermediate Member
Username: Walter_musson

Post Number: 32
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Howard,
Yes it is possible, but the installation sounds suspect from the start.
Why don't you suggest removing half of them this year and completely redo them experty- then do the other half next year?
Repair the remaing ones with EPDM until next years work proceeds.
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howard littman
New member
Username: Hil

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

removing and replacing the copper is the 'simple' answer to any defect...

the only question I pose is really an academic one that might relate to ANY project: is it technically feasible to repair a soldered seam that has failed... if not by re-soldering the seam itself, then by use of a 'briding' repair, similar to what is shown in the graphic (or some alternate that accomplishes the same thing, depending on the particular configuration)...

regards,
hil
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 153
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 05:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was asking these question to see if the installation of the copper is to the SMACNA sheet metal hand book. It sounds like its not.

I would suggect redoing the copper but, would get some other prices. Some real picture would help alot.
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howard littman
New member
Username: Hil

Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Liam..
Not sure why these questions are relevant as to the overall concept for repair, but here is additional information:

Each dormers is covered with a single large sheet covering entire top surface.
Per notes below... soldered only... 20 oz... solder type unknown.

Joint depicted in rough graphic is soldered only, no mechanical reinforced joint, or movement joint. I have not observed in person so cannot be certain but I suspect that in reality the sheet on the flat roof plane extends under the curved sheet that forms the dormer top, and if that is true it would have had to be crimped or cut to make the transition. For the purpose of discussion only, I simply showed an open break where the solder has failed and is visually observable.

The flashing on the side of the dormers is not a problem, to my knowledge... only portions of the curved seam. I do not have full detail on how the transition between the curve and rake wall was installed... I am only advised there is no water intrusion or failure at that point. On the side/rake wall, there is a z-flashing configuration at the bottom of the dormer sheet, covering base flashing below.

There is some water intrusion due to poor detailing at the lowest end of the rake wall, at its base, where the wall base flashing, the roof plane and the pre-cast concerete face pieces come together... but that is due to poor detailing and not to copper or solder failure.

Regards,
hil
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 05:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are all the dormer installed with block copper or is it big pcs of copper, going from one side to the other?

What is the copper on it know 16 oz or 20 oz?

Where was the copper from US or other?

How was it soldered?

Was it locked at this joint or riveted?

Is the copper on the dormer doubleing as the step flashing or is it locked in to a z-flashing on the side of the dormers?
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howard littman
New member
Username: Hil

Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 11:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry to say that good photos are not readily available, and I will not be at the site for some time. At this point I am assuming that soldering the open joints is not the proper option, so a 'bridging repair' would be needed. I also assume that any acids causing corrosion can be neutralized as part of the repair so they are not 'trapped' and cannot cause any further daamge to the underlying copper.
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 150
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 05:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can you get any picture of the reaction that is going on to the copper?
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howard littman
New member
Username: Hil

Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe...sorry I forgot to answer one of your questions... the original construction was approx. 1983, so copper is now 24 years old.

My intuition is that the corrosion is not the sole cause of failure, but that the corrosion weakened the joints enough so that they failed when subjected to stresses of differential movement.

Complication is that this is an oceanfront location, but low rain area (Los Angeles area)... so there is daily 'moisture' that allows environmental acids to be active on the solder and copper surfaces... and not enough water to regularly wash acids from the copper surface... with acids eventually attacking the solder as the weakest component.

Under these circumstances, do you have any thoughts on life expectancy of 20 oz. copper, other than general rule of thumb of up to 50 years.

Thanks again,
hil
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howard littman
New member
Username: Hil

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

 2008 (1).PDF,application/pdfrough dormer graphic
OneTouch Jan 06 (247.2 k)


Here is a rough graphic that may help you visualize what I think is the most difficult seam location to deal with, where curved barrel dormer tops meet steep sloped slate roof plane, so any pieces must be compound-curve in nature.

I did not show, but would probably consider adding, a bit of sealant or plastic roofing cement 'squeezed into' the actual corrosion failure locations, as a belt-and-suspenders item (and since this would be a protected location should last as long as the copper).

There are other locations where the failures involve only flat sheet goods, meeting on flat, or at right angles. These, I believe, would be much simpler to resolve... but would utilize similar components/techniques (laps, butyl... or alternately locked/folded seams in new copper that is soldered to competent copper an inch or two from the existing solder failures).

The detail concept shown would, I think, allow adequately for differential movement of sun-exposed copper versus protected/shaded copper.

As I view it, this repair should not be very costly, would require few slates to be removed and reset... and most importantly would avoid the wholesale replacement of dormer tops and roofing that the contractor has said is necessary.

((( Joe, along these lines I saw the text of your Las Vegas presentation in 2006, with negative views of contractors that suggest overall R&R in lieu of addressing specific leaks. )))

Any comments, criticisms, or alternate recommendations for how to achieve a repair at such locations are welcome. The sole objective is to provide the owner with a properly functioning solution for localized soldering failures... saving the Owner close to a half-million dollars.

Regards,
hil
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 149
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 07:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pictures of the soldered joints would be great to see. That will help to give you a good suggection on repairing it.
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howard littman
New member
Username: Hil

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for your replies.

Your advice re: fixing the lateral under-laps is as I anticipated... concept would be to insert bibs with plastic roof cement or other material to help secure in place and seal against water intrusion through the slate gaps... I figured this is a simple matter, not much time/cost involved... the number of locations is nominal percentage-wise.

At the dormers, based on input from you and other research I have been doing, actual re-soldering of the failed joints might be problematic. However, it appears that the failed joints can be 'bridged', as I described in original post. That way new material would be soldered to existing non-corroded copper sheet. I would anticipate a detail that allows for differential movement. I'll try to post graphics next couple of days. Your further suggestions/advice will be appreciated.

Regards,
hil
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Michael Rimel
New member
Username: Mike_r

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 02:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Howard,
Joe is right you can use metal bibs to fix your side lap problem. It sounds like the installer of the copper dormer tops did not know how to solder.You may be able to clean the joints good enougth to re solder them but it's not likely. Once it gets dirt under them the solder will not draw back and they will bust again.You will have to take the slate out around the tops of the dormers to repaire them. Thats alot of labor for something that may or may not last.
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Joe Jenkins
Senior Member
Username: Joe

Post Number: 199
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bib flashings will repair the side-lap problem in minutes. Slip them under the slates where the side lap is supposed to be. Use 6" wide pieces min. and make sure they´re long enough. They should slide up until they hit the slating nails and cover the entire length of the slot. Put a dab of good-quality, clear silicon caulk in the slot before you slip the bib in and it will never come out.

The solder issue is not so cut and dried. How old is the copper? Why did the joints break? Are expansion joints lacking? You could maybe resolder the broken joints only to have them break again because of a lack of expansion allowance.

As Liam said, a photo would help.
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 146
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 05:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Both of your problems shouldn't be hard to fix. Some pictures would be good to see for both areas. The soldered seam should be able to be fixed with out removeing all of the slate. With picture we can give you more info.
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howard littman
New member
Username: Hil

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have two matters regarding which I seek advice, as follows.

1. Slate roof was installed with some inadequate side laps... in fact a couple are actually directly in line with tile above such that there is a direct path for water to reach the substrate. Is there a simple repair that can be performed for this problem, which is very limited in scope... such as insertion of a copper strip directly under the gap between two slates, to act as a 'local' flashing, and adhering it with plastic cement or butyl tape, etc.???

2. A number of copper soldered seams have failed, apparently due to accelerated corrosion and/or strain due to movement... but the adjoining copper sheet goods are in good condition (20 oz and 16 oz in various locations). A contractor has stated that there is no way to repair the failed joints, and that the entire roof and all copperworks must be replaced. This is counterintuitive, and I suspect there are ways to repair the failed soldered joints in place. The cost for total replacement runs over a half million dollars on this steep sloped roof with 27 curved-top copper-clad dormers. I have come up with details that I think would work, using repair strips soldered on either side of the failed joints, and using either folded seams, lock seams or butyl tape, all of which would allow for movement/strain in future. I am trying to determine if there is another simple approach involving direct re-soldering of the failed joint. If so, I am looking for some published material/details, etc. that shows techniques for such repairs. Any help would be appreciated.

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