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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 70
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok but, what about all the question I post on the 25th? I feel you migth be doing alot more work then is needed! Because you said the water is come in from the corner? The vent is you should be able to remove and reflashed correctly. Unless the counter flashing above the brick that you said went all the way to the wall don't.
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Gene Spivak
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Username: Listove

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks to everyone for your comments. We are going to remove the bricks above the flashing. We are going to flash horizontally above each step and solder it to the existing steps to prevent water from entering "sideways." We are going to put additional copper flashing extending up to the vent above, and we are going to make sure that the building felt goes over the flashing. We are going to put a copper flashing pan below the vent. Since we are taking the brick out, we will be able to insure that the roof itself properly goes underneath the flashing. I will have them look at the termination of the standing seams at the top of the roof to make sure water is not entering there. They will put in weep holes at each step and across the top of the bay as well. I guess I can assume that if properly flashed, I shouldn't have to worry about water entering from the outside through the weep holes. We will also check all the morter to make sure there are no holes.
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Joe Jenkins
Senior Member
Username: Joe

Post Number: 104
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron - how are you reducing the size of your images? I think the max allowed on this board is 1 megabyte per image. I use photoshop to manipulate my images. If you don't have it, you should get it. I think you can get a limited edition version that will do everything you need pretty cheap.
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AF
New member
Username: Tonyeriepa

Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 09:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, though it's hard to see, it looks like the long strip of flashing along the top is slotted to accept the sanding seams which don't appear to be flattened over beneath that flashing strip. If that's the case, and the apparent solder is not perfect, water can run off that strip at the standing seam terminations and flow into the seams and hence beneath the copper and into the building. However, if those s-seams are sealed with an internal strip of butyl rubber, that shouldn't be a route for water!
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ron kugel
Member
Username: Slateworks

Post Number: 22
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Joe about the hole and caulking the edge of counter flashing..also how far into the mortar joint is the counter flashing? Is the mortar new or old? you may want to consider doing something with it..but first would try just caulking the verticals and checking out the missing mortar(hole) as Joe suggested.you can also do the water hose test to help locate the leak.

Joe ,I have tried to load a few pictures but they keep getting rejected because they are to large have tried to reduce them with no luck any suggestions? Thanks, Ron
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Joe Jenkins
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Username: Joe

Post Number: 100
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Try caulking it and see if that stops the leak. If so, then next time perhaps don't leave vertical edges on the step flashing, but extend the top of the step flashing away from the bay window roof more to create an angled flashing that will prevent capillary attraction from bringing water into the building. The bottom piece of step flashing is angled this way already to some extent.

There also appears to be a hole in the mortar joint on the right side, 3rd step flashing up from bottom.
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 06:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, most of the water is in the corner. Does it start high, or is it starting lower. Is the brick and the side of the bay window caulked? Does the SS panels go up the wall(how many ")?
Is there through wall flashing all around the vent? Was the vent made with wind baffel?

If the flashing on the window is through wall flashing it is un likely that it is from that.
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Gene Spivak
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Username: Listove

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The water seems to be coming in in the left and right corners of the box window where the box window meets the house. The water is dripping from the steel lintel that supports the blocking that supports the brick above. Unfortunately from the attic above, there is no access into the box window's roof, so we had to cut out the sheetrock in the area under the copper roof to see in and let it air out. It is a handmade brick, so there is the possibility that it is porous, but the water was coming in quite rapidly during a storm we just had; the wind was blowing against this part of the house. It doesn't seem possible that the volume of water we had was the result of porous bricks. We are having a problem with the vent leaking, and are going to take it out, seal behind it with flashing and tuck the flashing in the space between the brick and the sheathing of the house behind the brick (this vent is not needed as we have soffit vents and ridge vents - the gable vent will remain purely as a decorative item) We already tried sealing the vent from behind and putting a pan underneath - this helped but it is still not watertight. The flashing was installed prior to the bricks going up and I am told it goes up the sheathing behind the brick.
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 62
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 06:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gene, when you do the water test with the hose, were are you spraying and where is it comeing in? Is it a lot of water? Is the new construstion done with old brick? Is were a framed inside wall? Was the flashing cut in after the brick was layed, or was there full through wall flashing? Is there any problem with the vent above, was that flashed and caulked rigth?
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Gene Spivak
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Username: Listove

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here are 3 photos:
Front View
Middle View
Side View
You can see they've soldered the steps together, and caulked between the bricks and copper, ...but it still leaks. It was checked with a hose. They are going to remove the brick on the sides of the steps and lay in some copper there and solder it to the vertical pieces of flashing, as well as removing the bricks above to make sure it is flashed properly. After the proposed soldering, we should have a "solid" piece of flashing. They also will put some weep holes. Does this sound like the proper approach?
This is all brand new construction.
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jason winfrey
Junior Member
Username: 1roofpro

Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

without a picture its hard to say, but ive seen many otherwise nice jobs leak because the "leg" of the panels werent properly soldered where they met the wall. slateworks seems like he's seen this often as well. btw, i always tell my guys you HAVE to work the caulk in w/ your finger or it just woint seal properly.
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ron kugel
Member
Username: Slateworks

Post Number: 21
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gene, Did you install new counter flashing that is coming out of the brick or are you using an existing counter flashing? ---- If the top edge of your new copper roof that would be under the counter flashing is exposed,caulk the top edge with a good 50 yr. silicone or a good urethane caulking, then if installing new counter flashing cut in the mortar joint horizontally,clean joints of all dust,fit new counter flashing,remove after you have cut it to fit, fill the mortar joint with caulking or mortar then install counterflashing,then add another bead of caulk to fill joint of all voids(work in with small flat bar or finger,smooth edges to make sure you have good adhesion to brick and metal)),you could also put a bead of caulk on the vertical edge, on the backside of counter before installing it.you could also caulk the edge of vertical portion of flashing after it is installed..if using an existing counter flashing that is set in old mortar,just caulk the vertical portion,if joint has old caulking, remove old caulking of horizontal joint or check to make sure mortar is in good condition ect....be sure to allow enough lap from one counter flashing to the next one and to keep the bottom edge close the new roof...Sometimes leaks occur from not working in the caulking or installing over a dusty mortar joint,you cannot just apply a bead of caulking without working in in and expect it to keep out rainwater... If the job is already completed just caulk your vertical joints with the best caulking you can get and recheck the caulking of the horizontal joints and make sure the end of the standing seams are soldered or folded over and sealed where they meet the wall.Hope this helps.
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Joe Jenkins
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Username: Joe

Post Number: 89
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gene, I agree - we need to see a photo.
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Slate Affair Inc.
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 59
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gene, you should post a picture.
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Gene Spivak
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Username: Listove

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leak where step flashing meets brick over standing seam copper roof
We have installed a standing seam copper roof over a box window. Copper flashing above the window comes from behind the brick and steps down along the side of the copper roof; the roof goes under this flashing. It appears that water is being blown in along the vertical sides of the flashing and is going inside the house. We are soldering the step flashing together, but still feel water will blow in where the vertical portion of the flashing meets the brick before it reaches the next step below. The contractor plans on filling this gap with a 25 year silicone. Does this seem like the best and longest lasting solution? Should we use something else between the brick and copper to create a tight seal? Should we solder a piece of copper onto the flashing and try and cut it into the mortar vertically?
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Don Gerhardt
Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I will replace the asphalt roof on a 1894 farm house with slate. What should I do for flashing on the rake edges? I plan to use the Berger Brothers F4 1/2 16 ounce copper drip edge for the eave edge. Can I also use this for the rake edge? I understand from the Jenkins web site that the slate should overhang the eave edge by 1.5 " and the rake edge by 1.0"
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Peter Young
Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I recently purchased a house with a new addition added to a 1916 slate roofed tudor. The slate on the new addition has the ends of the slate roof flush with the side walls. The original roof has about a 1 inch overhang which I understand is important to have. It appears that without the overhang, rain can find its way between the slate edge and the top of the side walls. I'm interested in correcting this defect.

Does it make sense to slip 4" wide strips of copper flashing underneath the slate at the edges leaving 1 inch of the copper strip exposed to create a 1 inch overhang or would this still let water to leak in? Or would this look too ugly?

How should I attach the flashing to the roof or is there a better way to correct for the lack of overhang like simply caulking the edges?
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Joe Jenkins
Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can you slip a copper drip edge in under the edge of the slates, running the length of the gable? The drip edge would be bent into an "L" shape similar to common aluminum drip edge. If there are no slate nails too close to the edge of the roof, you should be able to slip this metal under the slates (and down over your fascia an inch or two) and *possibly* prevent water from infiltrating there.

It's hard to judge this situation without actually seeing it.
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Peter Young
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for your input Mr. Jenkins. If you think this is the best option, I'll study the details further. Maybe I'll also take a router and bevel the top of the fascia plate at a 45 so the flashing bends down before the top plane of the flashing is exposed to rain.

I just ordered your Slate Bible book and I have been enjoying your website. I now know I have a graduated slate roof. My other needed project is to replace siding on some dormers but I've been afraid of damaging the slate roof during access. I'm hoping to find the answers after reading your Bible. I'll need to purchase some slater's tools and materials once I figure out the plan!
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Tim Dittmar
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you're serious about becoming "slate fluent" by purchasing tools, materials, and such- then look forward to the day when you'll remove those too narrow slates and re-slate the gable rake more nearly as it should have been done- hey! They only need to be an inch wider so only the halves are unusable- that means every-other slate for repairs is on site and waiting on the roof! Is this gable in the "lee", matey or is it t'wards the weather(of the prevailing sort, doncha' know)? Maybe the likely damage in the interim is a tempest in a teacup? A continuous piece of flashing is not optimum- it needs more to be "stepped"- as you study you'll get it- I'd thought removing some trim(if possible) as You've ventured might help to get the edge to drip harmlessly- are the outboard corners of the slates clipped?- that's supposed to turn the water away from the edge(somewhat) let us hear from you in the future- slater-to-be?
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Joe Jenkins
Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tim's correct about the scenario - the only right and permanent fix is a correct re-installation of the slate at the gable ends. Continuous flashing is not normally acceptable up the rake of a roof, and the drip edge I suggest would simply keep water from penetrating the outer edge of the fascia/molding, which may be enough. As I said before, I would need to see it to know for sure.

It seems unlikely that the roof would have been installed without any overhang on the gable ends. Maybe an additional fascia was added later?
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Frank Davis
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a similar question regarding lack of sufficient overhang and the use of "gutter drip edge flashing"

I have a 1930's Tudor Revival with a Vermont slate roof and have recently had half-round gutters installed.

The problem is that over time a second layer of fascia board has been installed and some of the roof-edge slates are slightly broken. In some places the rain is not entering the gutter and is running down the face of the fascia.

I was considering sliding 6" royal brown aluminum with a 90 deg. drip edge that carries the last row of slates out another 1", so that all rain enters the gutter.

Is this a wise move? It would seem a bit of an undertaking to have the gutters removed, fascia replaced and broken slates replaced.

Thank you in advance for your insight.

Frank Davis
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Joe Jenkins
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why not just replace the broken slates?
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Frank Davis
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe -

Thanks for the reply...I think that the double facia is contributing to the problem as much as the broken slates...

Is there any problem that can be a direct result of inserting flashing under the first row?

Frank
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Joe Jenkins
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 09:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Inserting flashing under the first row where needed is a quick, easy and effective solution. You can use painted (white/brown) coilstock aluminum and leave the brown side facing out. It's available at any building supply place in 50' rolls. You can glue it in place by putting a spot or two of lifetime clear silicon caulk on it before sliding it into place. No nails may be required.
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slateworks
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you ever want to fix the slate to match your double fascia with out removing gutter & fascia ect.-Remove your first row of slate and under eavers-Install metal drip edge(roof apron style-bend to fit pitch of roof and to also extend 2-4 inches under slate and extend 1.5-2" into back of 1/2 round gutter)Install longer slates to make up for double fascia-this would also take care of broken slates-you could do one side at a time so the expense would not be to much at one time..we install a Roof apron with most of our 1/2 round gutter installations,really helps to keep rain,snow & ice from going behind gutter...You can also install the metal as you mentioned above as an effective inexpensive fix at this time.
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Frank Davis
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gentlemen -

Thank you both so much for your informative replies.

Mr. "Slateworks", where are you located? If you do not perform work in Northern NJ (Morris County) do you know a very reputable and reasonably priced referral?

Best Regards-
Frank Davis
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slateworks
Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Frank, Located in the Pittsburgh,Pa area.A little to far to travel to your location.I do not know anyone in that area-Listed on Jenkins Slate Services(this website)is a list of Slate & Tile contractors,you may be able to find one close to you. Good Luck. Ron
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jmoulton
Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am in the process of selling my home in Southern California and recently had my roof inspected. The inspector indicated that my concrete tile roof was improperly installed because it didn't have any flashing underneath the last row of tile extending over the faschia. I took a look this morning and there is a layer of felt that extends at least an inch over the faschia and into the gutter. In addition, the tile extends at least 1 1/2 inches into the gutter. His recommendation is that the first three courses of tile need to be removed and the flashing added. I may be wrong but it seems like this is an additional layer of redundancy that may not be needed. Any thoughts?
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admin
Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Beats me. You certainly don't need the flashing on slate roofs, so I don't know why you would on a concrete tile roof. Some contractors install drip edge flashings on slate roofs, but it serves no real purpose and was never used on traditional slate roofs.
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Dan Legron
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am a roofing contractor in northwest ohio and I have a project of about 109 square of graduated slate that will go on a church addition. We do a lot of slate and tile roofing, but have never done the graduated slate style. I need to order the materials and do not understand the idea of installing traditional slates in the layout pattern. Could you explane the reason for this and maybee tell me how to figure these in when i order the slate??
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admin
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What is the graduation scheme? Are you matching the scheme that is currently on the church?

If so, you have to measure the lengths and exposures of the existing church slates in order to determine the graduation scheme (e.g.: 3 rows 24" long slates at bottom x random widths, then 4 rows 22" slates, then 5 rows 20" slates, etc., etc., all the way to the top, where the slates will be maybe 12" long and 3/16" thick).

Also, you have to determine the thickness graduations (e.g.: 24" x random widths x 3/4-1" thick; 22" x random width x 5/8" to 3/4" thick, etc., etc.).

Then, you have to determine the color mix (e.g.: 50% Vermont mottled green and purple, 20% sea-green, 20% unfading green; 10% Vermont black).

Once you have the existing graduation scheme determined, you can then try to match it to the addition roof area, which will probably not be the same size as the church roof, so the number of rows of slate will not be the same. After you have made all these determinations, you can order the slates.

Some things to think about: the transition from one length to another may cause a 5" headlap at the transition course (assuming a standard 3" headlap is specified for the roof). This is not a problem with the roof, but may make it more difficult to use roof jacks on that course. Also, it is imperative that you have the graduation scheme spelled out in the contract documents, *in detail*. You should also state in your contract documents that the new roof will not look like the old roof because new slate does NOT look like old slate.

There is a sample slate roof installation contract available on this web site (http://www.jenkinsslate.com/install_contract.htm). It is not comprehensive, but it's made available for clients who may want to see what sort of specs should be listed on a contract (we will soon be offering a comprehensive installation contract for contractors for a fee).

One way to get a handle on the graduations is to lay out the roof on the ground - lay a (vertical) row of slates on a level surface, overlapping each other according to the expected exposures and headlaps. In other words, if the roof is 30' high (30' rafter length), lay 30' of slates in a single row, overlapping each other so you can see the exposures and laps. Then, you will be able to see how the roof should be chalked prior to the laying of the slates.

There is an article about graduated slate roofs at http://www.traditionalroofing.com/TR2-graduated.html, and an article about a simple graduated slate roof installation at http://www.traditionalroofing.com/TR2-Barry.html.

Joe Jenkins
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Dan Legron
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Joe
Your info has been very helpful and you have been recommended for your knowledge from Shawn Camara, who we are working with on this project as well as others.
Again, thank you

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