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John_chan (John_chan)
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Username: John_chan

Post Number: 43
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've never seen the La Casa tile, but there are definitely some tiles that don't rely on underlayment, but they're few and far in between here in the US. There's also certain things that you can change, to make it water tight without underlayment, e.g. increasing the headlap on shingle tiles. But as far as the interlocking tile, I don't see how you could reasonably change the installation to make it work without underlayment.
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Slateworks (Slateworks)
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Username: Slateworks

Post Number: 67
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Should of stated that I was refering to the lightwieght interlocking type tile that has problems once the underlayment starts to breakdown(same type of tile John gives for an example),have seen many roofs with 2 layers of 30# or 43# - The design may not be the best,but it still is better to try and save them then to replace with asphalt which happens alot in this area..Brandon glad to hear that you can install some types of tile without underlayment and from looking at some of your pics are a true craftsman..I am just stating what I see on daily basis during inspections of leaking tile and slate roofs then trying to determine why they are leaking and what it would take to terminate the leaks.
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David_spradlin (David_spradlin)
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Username: David_spradlin

Post Number: 56
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Except in the case of roofs with very steep pitch, flat interlocking tile will always be reliant on underlayment. Like John said, that little 1.5" inch lock is just not enough to keep all the water out. A little moss or dirt in there and then you really see it. Slab tile (with enough headlap) and definately two-piece barrel and some S-tile can go down without it. Even interlocking tile with contuers that carry the water away from the keyways can, but it dosen't seem very many are designed that way. When I was a kid, the company I worked for used to service two or three condominium complexes in Oakland and the surrounding suburbs with the old Monier Roma concrete tile. The were installed over 1x3 strapping and nothing else. That tile is made with the keyway ontop of the hump to where water naturally falls away from it, similiear to a Vande-Hey La Casa tile. Some were even installed with no off-set pattern, meaning that each course was laid in line the the ones above and below, straight up the slope. Keyways dumping into keyways. While they were a constant maintenance issue from winddriven rains at hips and ridges where the mortar had fallen out and valleys always overflowing. They never leaked from pure lack of underlayment. Mind you this is in northern California with our extremely moderate winters compared to many places.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 269
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 07:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Very profound Branden. We have outsmarted ourselves in a lot of things!
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Branden_wilson (Branden_wilson)
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Username: Branden_wilson

Post Number: 43
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

as i've mentioned in other posts, most of the slate roofs here are given to "roofing contractors" who all do concrete tile the way northern guys do shingles but in the worst way imaginable. the 20yrs is because of all of the poor workmanship. that's how they install their concrete (i'll make an album and post it soon). there's a few jobs done by guys imported from up north and mine which are correct, but they are only the minority.

as far as clay, i deal with many hand-made clay tiles that i either mortar set or hand nail. some have headlap, others do not. but none of the ones i install rely on underlayment and i still guarantee them for life. i'm not just talking about flat, book style tiles either. mostly barrels and shingles. i see your guys points but i also see how they can be installed permanently. it's not in a fancy brochure or roofing contractor book but in his-story, history. clay roofs weren't designed thousands of years ago because they're complicated or rely on 20th century technology or they simply don't work. like most everything else in recent american history, i believe we have just dis-functioned something functional with all of our increased "knowledge".
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Slateworks (Slateworks)
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Username: Slateworks

Post Number: 66
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with John,have seen many tile roofs in Western,Pa area that the underlayment wore out and the roofs leaked.As he stated the 1/2" channel fills up with debris and causes water to overflow under the tile and with the underlayment cracked and split the roof leaks,have to lift tile and install new underlayment..one Example: some roofers tried to install french tile over top of a box gutter,it looked very good could not tell that there was a box gutter except there was no underlayment under the tile and it really leaked bad thru the holes in the wore out box gutter,we lifted the tile installed proper,sheathing, underlayment ect.solved the problem..Also some of the interlocking tile channels will start to breakdown which also causes problems..underlayment is an integral part of tile roofs in the States..Why are slate roofs only lasting 20 yrs. in florida? poor quality slate from Brazil,china ect.? I know the sun is intense but seems a good S-1 slate would last 75 yrs even in Fla.?
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Branden_wilson (Branden_wilson)
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Username: Branden_wilson

Post Number: 42
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

well john, it sounds like you've got a lot more knowledge on the subject than i. i don't walk on roofs, i just install them.
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John_chan (John_chan)
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Username: John_chan

Post Number: 42
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Branden,

I'm not sure what it is you strongly disagree with. Nearly all the tile manufactured in the US in the last 5 or more decades rely on the underlayment if you install it to manufacturer's specs. There are some exceptions like the ones I noted and a few more like B.Mifflin Hood's Devonshire (9"x16") shingle tile. But it only makes sense that shingle tiles that are 7"x15", which seem to be a common size, (Calais, Provincial, Patrimony, etc.) with a 2" headlap, will leak. It's just like having a 7"x 15" slate with 2" headlap.

All the interlocking tiles whether it'd Ludowici, Heinz, B. Mifflin Hood, Mound City, etc. have one lock that is approximately 1/2" x 1/2". When debris gets in the lock, the water spills over to the underlayment. Or if you get torrential downpours like we get here in New Orleans, the water will definitely spill over.

You mention that they've been using tile all over the world without underlayment, but I was referring to the tile used here in the United States. There are quite a few European tiles with not only 1 channel, but 3 large channels in the lock. There are also some European tiles that are not laid out the same way, similar to Ludowici's Conosera, that doesn't rely on the underlayment.

From what I've seen, most tile roofs here in the US have underlayment issues in 50-90 years except on very steep slopes. I can't say I've seen everything, but I've been on over 2000 tile roofs in nearly a dozen states, and a few of them in Europe. I would definitely say that the Europeans and the Japanese have a leg up on the US manufacturer's as far as design. But as I was saying, I don't know why the manufacturer's don't design something like a shingle tile that is laid like slate with a 3" headlap, or an interlocking tile with the 3 channels, or why Ludowici discontinued the Conosera tile.
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 267
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We all know that installation is everything. We also know that very few roofers know how to do it correctly. This is going to be a learning curve to get back to where quality means more than a quick fix and speed.

When we went to a throw-away society and mass production, the quality of the roofing in particular suffered. It will come back, but it will take a bit. Be patient, and keep on doing it right.
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Branden_wilson (Branden_wilson)
Intermediate Member
Username: Branden_wilson

Post Number: 40
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 10:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John, i have to strongly disagree. both slate and clay have given us thousands of years of track record. we have accurate, time tested proof of exactly how long these roofs will last. although i stick mainly with slate, i have seen clay roofs far outlast slate roofs all over the world. just like slate, many clay roofs were installed with no underlayment at all. i'm surprised this topic has even lasted this long before someone called this out. here in south florida ALL tile roofs COMPLETELY rely on underlayment. clay or concrete, they rarely last longer than 20yrs. but even the concrete tile manufacturers reccomend against this type of install. i know most of the slate roofs around here are lasting 10 to 20 yrs at best. is this a good indicator of how long a slate roof lasts? lets look at history and proof to decide what these roofs are capable of rather than botched installs.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 498
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 05:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well if the tile roofs where strapped, you could install copper panel in between the vertial battens and then cap the vertial battens, just like a batten standing seam roof. Basicly making a sub-roof. Then install the horizontal battens over the cladded vertial battens, you could add a pcs of ice and water over the vertial battens, so that the nails which would be SS nail would be sealed better. This would make a low pitch tile or slate roof last alot long, I would think it would make for a 100 plus years as underlayment.
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John_chan (John_chan)
Advanced Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 41
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, I just had them quote me couple weeks ago.
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Epl (Epl)
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Username: Epl

Post Number: 36
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Speaking of Ludowici, have you had any troubles in getting a hold of them Jon?

I've been trying to contact my new rep. for over 3 weeks now and not a peep.
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John_chan (John_chan)
Intermediate Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 40
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Liam,

The roofs that need new underlayment are both nailed to the deck and on battens. I guess you could say the problem was the architectural design. But bascially, it would be saying that you could only put most tile roofs on very steep pitched roofs.

Other than the Ludowici Conosera or the 5-sided combo tile or a couple of others, you would want your roof to be a 12/12 or better to not rely on underlayment. The weird thing is that Ludowici doesn't do production runs of either one of those tiles anymore!!
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 496
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 01:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, that goes back to what I said about architectural design/details of the roof, when design rigth that will not happen.

The ones on the the lower pitch that end up needing new underlayment, are they on wood battens? Or nail rigth to the deck? What is it about 50/50.
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John_chan (John_chan)
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Username: John_chan

Post Number: 38
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Usually tile roofs with a 14/12 or a 12/12 pitch don't have underlayment problems. A tile roof would be like a 6"x 12" slate roof with a 2" head lap on a 12/12 or a 14/12 pitch. You'll usually find more problems with lower pitched roofs or roofs with trees that generate lots of debris.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 494
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 07:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So after 50 to 70 years a tile roof on a 12/12 or 12/14 will need full under layment replacement, or it may start leaking?
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Username: Old_school

Post Number: 257
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Globe industries used to have the coated 43#, but they went out of business about 13 years ago. I haven't seen it since then.
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John_chan (John_chan)
Intermediate Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 37
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Most roofing supply houses carry it.
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Joe (Joe)
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Username: Joe

Post Number: 464
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John - where do you get the 43# felt?
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John_chan (John_chan)
Intermediate Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 35
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 09:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Liam,

I'm not sure that there is an underlayment that will last that long. The new felt is nowhere near the same quality of the felt of the 1920's or 30's. The felts from long ago were often cotton or linen fiber with pure asphalt. Also, they were often made even stronger with horse hair or asbestos fibers. The felt today is paper and a much lower grade of asphalt.

Although Ludowici still specifies 30# felt, we always install 2 layers of 43# felt or 1 layer of Tamko tile and metal underlayment.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 486
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 06:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is more that the tile isn't installed in the rigth pitch, climate or architectural design/details of the roof. And if you rely of under layment, why not install materials that will last as long as the tiles.
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John_chan (John_chan)
Intermediate Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 32
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 12:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Liam,

It's pretty much true with all tile. This is the reason why you'll find tile roofs with no missing tiles, leak in the middle of the field.

The shingle tiles that lay like slate are usually 7x15 or 6x12 or similar sized with a 2" headlap. The interlocking tiles have small channels that don't handle all of the water load. The mission tiles also tend to "spill over". To this day, I'm not sure why someone doesn't manufacture a tile to eliminate this situation, e.g. a shingle tile that is 9x16 with a 3" headlap.
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
Senior Member
Username: Slate_man

Post Number: 485
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 06:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John- Tile will need to be picked up and re-laid in 50-90 years.

Why is this, is it with all tile?
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John_chan (John_chan)
Intermediate Member
Username: John_chan

Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Slate doesn't rely on the underlayment. Tile will need to be picked up and re-laid in 50-90 years. However, you can get certain looks with tile that can't be achieved with slate. For more information, you can visit our website at www.durableslate.com.

Thanks,

John Chan
Durable Slate
800-666-7445
jchan@durableslate.com
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Epl (Epl)
Intermediate Member
Username: Epl

Post Number: 32
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Suzanne,
I will go a head and respond to the email that you have sent me in regard to these products including all technical data required.

Thank you again,
Eric Loema
Renaissance Tile and Slate
(800) 699-5695
epl@claytileroof.com
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Looger (Looger)
New member
Username: Looger

Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2009
Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We are replacing our roof and are looking into slate or Ludowici tile (Lodo Slate line).

What are the advantages and disadvantages to slate versus clay (flat) tile?

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