| Author | Message | ||
     John_chan (John_chan) Senior Member Username: John_chan Post Number: 112 Registered: 08-2006 |
Hi Stuart, Definitely. I'm always trying to learn more everyday. There's no way to know it all. John | ||
| Lazeyjack (Lazeyjack) Senior Member Username: Lazeyjack Post Number: 65 Registered: 04-2012 |
John I am 66 this year, I have been there done it all, mostly  I simply do not have the energy to debate, I am sure you know what you are doing I am sure that we both have much to learn, Ciao best rgds Stuart | ||
| John_chan (John_chan) Senior Member Username: John_chan Post Number: 110 Registered: 08-2006 |
Copper tubing is probably about twice as thick as copper gutters and only about 1/2"-2" in diameter, so the thermal movement vs. rupturing is VERY different than in box gutters. Generally copper tubing has 90 degree bends in it attached with copper clamps/bells to allow for this movement, but they have quite a different requirement for expansion (around 300' for a straight run I believe?). The 3rd picture in the post shows 4 full sheets of copper with 3 solder joints which is about 40', and this is definitely too long. We learned this lesson the hard way, back in the late 80's; we had to bite the bullet and replace all the box gutters on a very large house 1 1/2 years after we installed them. We re-soldered it many times, but it would just keep breaking. Finally, we got a hold of the SMACNA manual. I can say that since that time, we've installed tens of thousands of feet of box gutters all over the US without a problem. This website would have been a tremendous asset to us back then. CDA link: http://www.copper.org/applications/architecture/arch_dhb/gutters_downspouts/hung _gutters.html SMACNA link: http://www.imarksweb.net/book/smacna+standard+for+expansion+joint+spacing+in+gut ters/ Traditional Roofing link: http://www.traditionalroofing.com/downloads/TR6_expansion_joints.pdf | ||
| Lazeyjack (Lazeyjack) Senior Member Username: Lazeyjack Post Number: 60 Registered: 04-2012 |
well in this case use a closer weldment material silphos pipe runs of considerable length carrying water and subject to extremes of temperatures and oft violent vibration, do not break, if they did then every house on the planet would have flooded wall cavitys? I said and i say again, those joints look as though they are corroded, i say again, here in De. i have seen 200 foot of downpipe subject to 4oc and minus 30c hold up with the correct joint design, sure the run will expand and grow but it would be rare for a gutter not to change direction at 90 degrees before it got too long and the change of direction would accomadate the movement, on this house it looks like 25 feet is the max length best rgds Stuart | ||
| John_chan (John_chan) Senior Member Username: John_chan Post Number: 109 Registered: 08-2006 |
It really depends on your climate. If you're in San Francisco, for instance, the temperature doesn't generally drop below 40 degrees and seldom gets over 75. However, in Atlanta, where this project is, it gets below freezing and the copper temperature is in excess of 130. Per SMACNA and CDA, the expansion coefficient of copper is 1/8" per 10' per 100 degree change in temperature. Therefore, a 40' run of box gutter is going to move over 1/2". Without an expansion joint, it'll break/rip after several seasons of temperature shifts. Without looking it up, I would venture to guess that the SMACNA table would suggest an expansion joint around every 20'-25'. One of the things we've realized in working in various parts of the country is the VAST differences of situations one encounters in different climates. For instance, in New Orleans, you have worry about flying termites attacking your wood deck and extreme hurricane velocity wind conditions. I was recently on a slate roof in the mountains of South Dakota, and you can get over 70" of snow in a couple/few days!! A large hailstorm just hit Dallas (3"+ hail), and it absolutely shredded a Brazilian slate roof. It looks like the roof was put in a blender, and not 1 piece on the entire house wasn't completely shattered. While I'm not a fan of Brazilian slate, it would probably do fine in Southern California or a similar environment. Different climates can cause highly different problems. I would venture to state that the box gutter in those pictures in Atlanta's climate will tear apart every few years without expansion joints. | ||
| Lazeyjack (Lazeyjack) Senior Member Username: Lazeyjack Post Number: 59 Registered: 04-2012 |
cannot open that on my phone joseph talk about it some other time best rgds Stuart | ||
| Joe (Joe) Moderator Username: Joe Post Number: 694 Registered: 07-2006 |
Expansion Joints in Built-in Gutters http://www.traditionalroofing.com/downloads/TR6_expansion_joints.pdf | ||
| Lazeyjack (Lazeyjack) Senior Member Username: Lazeyjack Post Number: 58 Registered: 04-2012 |
would not agree with last post John chan I have done 200 foot lengths with no expansion in all manner of metals, leadtinn is more ductile than Copper More likely the joints do not lap, although cannot tell from here, butts are useless because of the thin nature of the material, but laps work, see em on 100 foot downpipes here in Germany everyday best rgds Stuart | ||
| John_chan (John_chan) Senior Member Username: John_chan Post Number: 107 Registered: 08-2006 |
This was kind of an old posting, but in looking at the pictures, it's obvious why the solder joints cracked. The girth of the gutter with the shelf appears to be close to 4'. The one picture shows a run over 40' long with no expansion joint. It doesn't matter how well you solder it, the solder joints will break because of thermal movement. If you solder it so that the joint is super strong, the copper itself will tear. This wasn't necessarily a bad solder job, but an incorrect installation of copper. Most likely, they replaced an old terne metal gutter and didn't realize that changing over to copper was going to require adding expansion joints. They should have re-pitched the gutter to add expansion joints and downspouts. Unfortunately, these solder joints will break again after a few cycles of temperature change. His best bet would be to splice in some expansion joints and downspouts if possible. If the copper is nailed through and not cleated, the entire box gutter system will need to be replaced. | ||
| Lazeyjack (Lazeyjack) Senior Member Username: Lazeyjack Post Number: 57 Registered: 04-2012 |
well this appears to scream crevice corrosion and electrolytic corrosion This may or may not be classed as bad work depending upon many factors To me at glance it appears as tho the solder is zinc rich Zn is at the anode end of the galvanic table and Copper number 55 or close, much more (nobel) If the solder has less nobel metal in it it, could be subject to severe electrolysis in an enviroment that causes such. Usually salt water is the conduit but acid rain could, i spose do the same thing. there is a condition known as embrittlement, it is rather complex If you still own the property I would learn to solder and scrub off the bad joints with heat and wire brush and redo with a a high tin solder the photos are small resolution so if you are still here then email em best rgds Stuart | ||
| Wfa (Wfa) New member Username: Wfa Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2008 |
Note the cracked solder joints...this is evident throughout the job...the last 2 pics are one of many repairs I did myself..approximately 30 in all....20 year warranty? what a joke...KEEP AWAY FROM HL FORBES AND OLDEWORLDMASTERS FOR ANY TYPE OF COPPER, SLATE OR TILE WORK!!!!!! | ||
| Wfa (Wfa) New member Username: Wfa Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2008 |
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| Bill Anderson New member Username: Wfa Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2008 |
I own a home in Atlanta the has a ludowici spanish tile roof ( approx 55 square) with built-in copper box gutters. The entire gutter system and the soffit had to be replaced...I hired hl forbes to perform the renovation, at that time Paul Wiederhold was working for HL Forbes as lead foreman and performed much of the work...the total cost of the job was $40k+ which was supposed to include a 20 year warranty... The company is now owned by Paul Wiederhold and is now called Oldeworldmasters. Since then, I have had nothing but trouble with the copper work...most every seam in the box leaks causing damage to the new soffit, no expansion joints were incorporated into the gutter causing the soldered joints to crack, when Paul was contacted, he sent a fellow by the name of Corlis Burchell to perform repairs, not only did not repair the existing leaks, but created new ones by allowing an apprentice to experiment on my house...Even though Corlis has been in this business for 30 years, his work is sub-standard and does not care about quality. Anyone that needs any copper or slate/tile work done should avoid this company completely. I may be contacted directly or if anyone wants to see the work first hand, they may come out and take a look at my house...or I can provide the name of some slate and tile contractors that have been out to repair work that should have been covered under warranty. regards Bill Anderson billanderson10257@yahoo.com  |
