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Rose A. Matthis
Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David and Tim, Thanks for the good advice and comments. The roofers came back yesterday. When they arrived, I got on the phone with one of Ludowici's representatives and that was completely the right thing to do, as usual. The roofer also talked to Ludowici. He had already realized before he got here that he had misread the manual and that the 3" top width to 5" bottom width was half of the minimum recommended by Ludowici. We finally settled on 8" top to 10" at the bottom (the valley is around 24', I am guessing). They finished the valley and all of the other repairs yesterday. They used a Skilsaw. It must have had a ceramic-cutting blade in it, as the valleys are now much straighter. From the ground, the valley looks to be around 10"-12" in width, not 8" to 10", but we are going to stay with that. At least they are straight, and, since the total valley width was 22" across, at least 5" of valley is covered on each side, which exceeds Ludowici's minimum 4". I asked the Ludowici representative about soaking the tile. He said that Ludowici fires the clay at such a high temperature that it doesn't absorb water, so soaking is not necessary. I love Ludowici as a company--they have really old-fashioned values--and I love my Ludowici roof, but the roofs are really hard to repair down here. I am hoping for no more hurricanes. I need a rest.
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David Spradlin
Intermediate Member
Username: David_spradlin

Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rose, I'm glad Ludowici could be of some service to you. There are a lot of variables to consider when constructing a good tile valley. Which is why most manufacturer's specifications tend to be fairly vague. All Ludowici specifies is that the tile overlap the flashing by at least 4" inches (way too little in my opinion) and that the valley taper at least 1" inch for every 8' lineal feet of valley. So a lot is left to the installer. The 3" inch to 5" inch taper would be fine for valleys up to 16' feet in length. And should be plenty of exposure to allow for debris to flow freely through the valley, unless you have a lot of overhanging trees dropping foliage onto the roof. I don't know why they would change from the original 9" inch exposure. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good rule of thumb in cases like these. And its much easier the put a valley back together the way you found it than to recut the whole thing. Sounds like the original crew really blew it. As far as the hip and ridge go, we usually just dampen the tile with a sponge, but I guess soaking them couldn't hurt.
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Tim Dittmar
Junior Member
Username: Tim_dittmar

Post Number: 16
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 01:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rose- some might say a valley wide enough to walk in isn't a really bad idea- could be 9 inches is more than enough.. an electric, hand-held grinder(4-5 inch) with a diamond-studded blade can be used with care and on site to cut tile to more pleasing angles/shapes- be careful, however, about actually cutting on the roof and releasing dust on the tile- that dust can make the roof very unsafe for non-tethered walking, etc.- putting tiles back exactly where they came from really helps, too- it's common practice to "dampen" some masonry products(brick, say) to "prime" them and help them to initiate drawing moisture from mortar but w/o having the mortar be sucked "dry" by too-thirsty masonry and thereby affecting the cure- "soaking" sounds extreme but maybe not actually in the hot, bright, might have to wait to be mortared scenario. Additionally, a glazed tile slow to soak up water makes perfect sense for long-cycle roofing so maybe all this wetting is a judgement call best made on site by informed guessers?
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Rose A. Matthis
Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 22
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 10:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello. We finished long negotiations with the company who did the valley "repairs" below and the new repair started on Friday. David, thanks for Ludowici's phone number earlier. They couldn't have been more helpful and even met with the roofing company on our behalf. Since Ludowici wasn't involved with the repair at all, however, they had to step out of the picture weeks ago. I have some questions about the current repair and hope that someone can help me. The valleys have been done. The crew is coming tomorrow to mortar the hip and ridge tiles back into place and to inspect and to fix any unconventional repairs done earlier to the hips, ridges, and vents. The new valleys are fairly straight, but the head of the tile crew said that they are 3" at top and 5" at bottom, which we think is a misreading of the diagrams on p. 22 of the Ludowici manual. The original valley width was 9". We don't believe that this mistake would have been made by someone familiar with Ludowici valley installation and we are now questioning some other things that were said/done. I read that clay tiles should be soaked before they are embedded in mortar. Is that the case? The head of the tile crew said no. Also, what kind of saw, with a motor, would have been used on the rooftop to cut tile? Although the small cut pieces in the valleys are cut better than those cut in the original repair, the cuts look rough from the ground. Is that okay, as long as the left and right sides of the valleys are fairly straight? Also,what does "shaving" tile mean?
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Rose A. Matthis
Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, Ron. Thanks for the info on the cut tiles in the valleys and on underlayments. Texas windstorm inspectors have to follow the icc-es documents on Ludowici installations and those documents are taken straight out of the Ludowici manual, which recommends 2 layers of felt or ice and water membrane. We are in negotiations with the company now. They agree that the repairs were unacceptable and want to redo the entire valley area, taking photos during each stage for our approval. They were here yesterday and took some photos from the rooftop. I am attaching some photos of the valley repairs.jun 02jun 02jun 02
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ron kugel
Senior Member
Username: Slateworks

Post Number: 53
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Rose, The extra red clay you are seeing is from a fresh cut tile - if they would of either put the original valley tile back in place or chalked a line up and down the valley and cut and laid the tile to the line , you would not notice the fresh cuts as much and the valley would not look so rough because the tiles would be laying on top of each other evenly - the way it is now one tile is lifted slightly and another slightly lower because of the crooked valley cuts ect..The underlayment issue - the underlayment should not determine a roofs ability to leak or not to leak, but I know Ludowici would spec a 43 lb felt and 2 layers in all valleys,hips, low slope areas ,plus at times a Old style Ice shield at the eaves-2 layers of paper with an asphalt or hot tar sealer in between the 2 layers of felt,,,Especially the Lightweight Interlocking tile on slopes from 4 to 8/12 -Installed on the lower pitches I think these roofs would leak if they did not have any felts under them ?? especially once the channels fill up with debris and start slowing down the flow of rain water,if anyone has ever removed one of these roofs you end up removing many buckets of debris from the channels and small debris that blows in under the tile..Felt or no felt I do not know the final answer but we will keep installing it and hope for the best.
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello, again. Thanks for the comments. I am awaiting a reply from the Ludowici Texas representative. I didn't mean to imply that they were not being helpful. He has offered us assistance and we have asked him to recommend people to help us. Also, just this morning one of the project managers at Ludowici wrote back and is still on the case. The reason I believe some of the tiles in the south valley were laid horizontally is that when I zoom in on the south valley repair with a lot of exposed red clay in it I see what looks like the undersides of our tiles, which have two vertical ridges down the center, lying horizontally along the lefthand side of the valley. Thanks for the info on inverted v valleys. We really need to get a Ludowici or tile roof expert up there to see what it is that I am calling debris.
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David Spradlin
Intermediate Member
Username: David_spradlin

Post Number: 36
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rose, I'm sorry to hear Ludowici couldn't be of more assistance to you, I thought maybe they could at least recommend a qualified contractor for you. As for the underlayment issue, it depends greatly on a number of factors, such as climate, roof design, local codes, for which type (if any) underlayment should be used. I feel it helps alot with those fluke wind-driven leaks that may only occur once in a blue moon when the wind and rain come together just right, but agree that it shouldn't be relied upon as a primary waterproofing source. I don't see any signs in the picture of tile being installed horizantally. What I think your seeing is tile laying further into the valley than the course below, giving it a raised appearance. Thats not so much a problem as if it were reversed, where the lower course is cut closer to the center of the valley than the course above. This could cause a back-up of depris which could lead to water being redirected under the tile and over the pan. I also don't think the v groove flashing is going to cause any more build up than flat stock.
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi. Thanks for entering the "underlayment versus non-underlayment for tile roofs" debate. Texas windstorm inspectors are using Miami-Dade NOA and icc-es documents to approve Ludowici roofs because Ludowici tile is on a waiting list to be accepted as an approved roof covering in Texas. I will have to check the two documents to see what they say about underlayment. As far as the repair is concerned, form follows function for me: you can tell by looking at the craftsmanship in the original valleys that they will perform their function--removing water quickly and efficiently from the roof--beautifully. You can tell by looking at the valleys now that the opposite is the case. I am convinced that some of the tiles in the repaired south valley (in the photo with a lot of red) are raised up because they are placed on the roof horizontally. Water will rush down the valley and under those tiles and will eventually be entering the attic. I received an email from one of Ludowici's representatives in Texas today. You are correct that they cannot help us much. He was very concerned, but could only give us his condolences and his cell phone # if we could think of a way that he could help us. He said that he didn't think he had ever seen a worse installation of valley tiles. Someone (Ludowici?) emailed the before and after photos to the company. The supervisor who approved the original valley repairs emailed us this afternoon saying that he agreed there was a problem with the valleys and would bring a crew out to do an "adjustment" on the valleys on Tuesday. The last time he was here, he went up to our roof, looked at the repairs, and with that image in his head, came back down the ladder and told one of his crew to "adjust" some tiles that appeared sunken on the perimeter. We told him the tiles were sunken because they had been put back down on damaged wood. He asked his worker if the wood were rotted and the worker said it was strong wood and proceeded to do the "adjustment" with the nightmare of the rest of the valley staring him in the face. Sometimes I wonder if the reason this all happened is because the supervisor and the crew thought we would never be able to see what had been done 25 feet up. By the way, I still don't understand if inverted v copper valleys are correct on our roof/valley slope. Is the valley slope 7:12? Why is debris being caught on the inverted v? I don't understand the advantage of the inverted v valleys, although they do have a beautiful form.
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ron kugel
Senior Member
Username: Slateworks

Post Number: 52
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 08:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rose, Other than not looking to good is your roof leaking in the areas that have been repaired? It would be great if Ludowici helps you,but considering the age of the roof and the 1000's of other tile roofs that have less than perfect repairs performed ludowici could spend years doing this type of thing --unless they are charging you for their time and expertise? As far as underlayment goes we do install it when replacing valleys 30# And Ice Shield -We number and remove the tile,,we remove the old metal valley and the old felts then install a new base felt -also when removing old felts we cut it so we can add new felt under the old felt and over top of the top edge of new valley flashing.Re-install tile in the proper order and replace any broken tile as neede(also at times chalk lines and recut the whole valley tile to get them straight..Every tile roof we have worked on has felt under the valleys in essence the felts were heavier than normal and sometimes 2 layers thick and installed as a watertight covering,especially important on slopes from 5 to 8/12- also many of the valleys have a hem at the top edge and are roof cemented along the outside edge of the hem,,,We have removed tile roofs and the old worn out felt - installed new felts,then reinstalled the same tile--these roofs were leaking because of the worn out felts,the tile were fine,good channels ,no broken tile ect.--water gets under the lightwieght interlocking tiles the channels are not that wide or deep to accept heavy rains,ice & snow melt ect...most roofs were between 55 and 70 years old..we have also lifted and re-felted small areas that were leaking,it does work..The inverted V valleys are mostly used when the roof changes from a steep pitch to a lower pitch to slow down fast moving rain water from flowing under the roofing material on the lower pitch,they can be used in other roofing details as well ,as far as collecting debris seems a good rain should clear them?....Back to the underlayment it could be a Building code in your state? I believe florida would require it,because of the wild weather... Maybe the Company that did your work has a Good mechanic that could redo some of the problem areas or you may have to go the legal route...Good Luck.
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mr. Jenkins, I have a question about valleys with inverted v-grooves. Even after Hurricane Rita, our old copper valleys were unobstructed and clear of debris, but in the photos of the south valley repair, debris seems to be collecting already along the groove, unless I am seeing nails or other damage left by the roofers. Our slope is 7:12 on the roof as a whole. Are the valleys the same slope? Do we need valleys with inverted grooves? Will they collect debris more easily on the slope we have?
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for all the information and photos. When the supervisor told me they put ice and water membrane under the valleys and felt paper under the rest, I thought it sounded wrong, but I trusted that they knew what they were doing. We were continually reassured that the crew was experienced on this type of roof and well trained. It sounds as though they may have used torch-down underlayment anyway, which I am guessing is thick? We want everything pulled out and redone correctly, no matter what was done with the underlayment. Your description of a properly done valley repair leaves us concerned as to how a roofing company which is unfamiliar with the most elementary aspects of valley repair will be able to correct what they have done and what it will cost us. We are going to require that a Ludowici or tile roof expert be on site to inspect the work at all stages and that all of the work that was done on hips and ridges and elsewhere on the roof be pulled up for inspection.
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Joe Jenkins
Senior Member
Username: Joe

Post Number: 298
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When you replace a valley on a tile roof like that, you have to number each tile before removing it. Then, the roof goes back together and looks just like the original when done. I would guess that they made the mistake of not numbering the tiles. I don't see how they could do such a poor job otherwise. We work on these interlocking tile roofs often enough to know that it's not difficult to replace the valleys, and the underlayment doesn't really matter. Most of the tile roofs we work on are old enough that there is no effective underlayment on the roof anyway, so we don't bother with any underlayment when replacing valleys. We have done this for many years with never a leak. It's not the underlayment that keeps the water out, it's the tile and the flashings.

Here are a couple photos of an interlocking tile roof valley we replaced about 10 years ago, for example. Note that we used NO UNDERLAYMENT. It doesn't make a lot of sense to put beefy underlayment on one part of a roof when there is no effective underlayment anywhere else. Granted, valleys channel more water, but as I said, we have never had a leak.

If I had to do this one again, I'd put an inverted "V" groove in the valley because of the slope differential. We replaced the valley to match the original, however.




Interlocking tile roof valley replacement

Interlocking tile roof valley replacement
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 09:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks. That type of underlayment is not mentioned as approved for Ludowici roofs in their manual. I am still waiting to hear back from Ludowici. I think they were interested to see the photos because this roofing company implies on their website that they are certified to work on Ludowici roofs.
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David Spradlin
Intermediate Member
Username: David_spradlin

Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 08:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ice/Water isn't the same as torch-down, but would be used in the same capacity it this situation. I hope Ludowici can be of some assistance to you, I don't get the chance to deal with them much here in California, but every time I have, they've been great.
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 15
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 12:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello. Thanks for the comments and advice. I was told by the supervisor that they put ice and water membranes under the copper valleys and new felt under the rest of the area. Are those the same as the underlayment you were referring to? I just put in a call to Ludowici and sent them the photos. They were very interested in seeing the photos, and expressed a desire to help us.
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David Spradlin
Intermediate Member
Username: David_spradlin

Post Number: 34
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I had to guess, I'd say they put a sheet of torch-down roofing under the valley. You don't need a torch for ridge-tape (its more or less a small roll of ice/water shield) and I have real doubts that a roofer who leaves that type of finished product is soldering anything. It looks like when they pulled the valley apart, they didn't pay attention to where everything went, and tried to put it back together the best they could, which obviously isn't well. They shouldn't have needed a tile saw to do a standard valley replacement, except for replacing cut pieces that were already broken or broke during the replacement. Other than that the tile should have gone back together exactly how it came out. Try somebody from the SRCA list or you could call Ludowici and see about talking to there rep for your area and maybe he could help you out. It might be worth a shot, if there's no SRCA consultants in your area. Ludowici's # is (800)917-8998.
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 09:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the information about the use of the propane tank. When I asked the supervisor about it, he said his crews were trained never to take propane tanks on to a roof and I have been wondering about his response. There are very few local roofing companies who are SRCA members. This company was one, I believe; I am going to check their website again. We hadn't thought of starting by looking there and we appreciate the suggestion. I have a new concern. I just zoomed in 400% on the detail of the south valley where you can see a lot of the red undersides of the tiles. I wanted to see why the tiles are so jagged-looking and why they look raised up above the valley. Our tiles have two vertical ridges on the undersides, plus the two sides for interlocking. Are some of these tiles laid horizontally? Is that possible? How can they be interlocked? Are they just sitting up there on top of the vertical tiles?
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Kurtis Hord
Advanced Member
Username: Kwhord

Post Number: 48
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 06:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rose, there are a lot of SRCA members that provide consulting services.

About your question on the propane tank; they are often used in roofing for soldering, or for the application of modified bitumen. Since they used copper in the valleys I'm guessing they soldered them somewhere. Although valleys can be installed without soldering if they are folded right at the top.
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 12:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you very much for your comments and questions. They are very much appreciated because they are helping us to think about all of the questions we have about this repair. To answer your first question, there were leaks in the valleys after the hurricane. All three of the roofing companies we consulted said that the valleys needed to be replaced. We have the old valleys in the garage now; there are no holes in them, but they are very old. We saw the workers with a propane tank on the day of the repair. Would a propane tank be used with asphaltum tape? Is asphaltum tape an appropriate repair in that location? Why didn't they put the tiles back the way they were originally? Also, can valleys that are so jagged be functional? Won't leaves and other debris get caught in the tiles and compromise the valleys' functioning? Does it look to you like the reason the tiles are so jagged is that the roofers did not have one of those tile cutting machines and they broke the tiles by hand? Can valleys be functional if so much of their area is exposed? Also, some of the tiles seem to rise up above the valleys. Can water enter the attic more easily that way? We are on the Gulf Coast on the Texas/Louisiana border and when it rains here, it is often heavy and wind-driven. I think you are right about getting a consultant, but it is difficult because there are so few old Ludowici roofs in this area and roofers in Texas are not licensed. We don't know how to find someone who is both knowledgeable and trustworthy.
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David Spradlin
Intermediate Member
Username: David_spradlin

Post Number: 33
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What was the reason for the repair, had the original valley worn out? It definately looks awful. Hopefully its at least functional. The "hood" at the top of the valley looks like either poorly installed lead or ridge tape, which is a asphaltic tape sometimes installed under ridge and hip tiles as a flashing detail. I don't know anything about the contracting laws in Texas, but you may want to look into having a roof consultant come out and give a third party analysis of the situation.
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am attaching some photos of the valleys taken three years ago after Hurricane Rita. In the April 2008 repair, the roofing company threw away a lot of the small, custom-cut pieces that were in the valleys. Can our roof even be fixed? Is the cost going to be prohibitive to have all of the repairs--valleys, hips, ridges--pulled up, checked and redone? Do we have to go with the same company? South valley 2005north valley 2005
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Rose A. Matthis
Junior Member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here are two photos of details of the repair to the south valley.south valley 2008 detail
south valley detail
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Rose A. Matthis
New member
Username: Beaumont_tx

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am attaching photos of repairs done to the valleys on our Ludowici roof at the end of April this year. A supervisor from the roofing company came out, at our request, to take photos and inspect the repairs from the rooftop, which we are not able to reach. He took photos from a ladder placed near the south valley 25 ft. up, came back down, pronounced everything fine, and asked for the money. Now he won't send us the photos. We found out the next day that we could take some photos from neighbors' yards and driveways.

My husband and brother both say that the company deserves another chance to honor their contract with us by returning and correcting their mistakes. Do these repairs look like mistakes? What are the strange "hoods" that sit atop the south valley now? What else might they have done wrong that cannot be seen? The beautiful old lumber in the attic is splintered by ringshank nails (not smoothshank nails, as they promised), possibly driven too hard. There are nails in the attic directly under the new valleys. The supervisor said he checked and the valleys have not been penetrated. Replacement tiles were put down on deteriorated wood at the valley perimeters. There is no indication in the attic that the copper valleys were secured with clips on the interior sides. There is a large, odd glop of mortar at the southern end of the ridge which obliterates a view of the ridgepiece beneath. All the ridge tiles have been mortared shut at the ends. Is that a correct repair? They looked open before. From the ground, the tiles in the north valley look like a different color than the ones there originally and I wonder if they got industrious and pulled out and replaced all the tiles in the north valley. They walked all over the roof. The supervisor said he saw no cracked tiles.

What can my husband and I do to protect the roof from a possibly aesthetically correct yet functionally incorrect redo? What can we require of the company? I researched this company thoroughly. Ludowici is prominently mentioned on their website. They are members of every possible roofing association and are bonded and insured. I am confused and disheartened by their behavior and worried about our roof. I will have to send the other photos in a second message. I have to resize them. The two I am sending are the south valley and a detail of the north valley. so valley 2008no valley 2008 detail

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