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Bstinelli (Bstinelli)
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Registered: 07-2009
Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 03:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

slateman it does i just wish i could get them to stay tighter the job i'm doing is a gambrel roof and the back of the gutter is so high i have to solder it vertically (getting messy) because i can't get them to stay tight i run my bubble soldering down and it sweats perfect, but than the joint opens up drives me in sane so i end up redoing it again and again i usually lock my gutters together (normally if their 18" wide) than i solder the front and bottom and roll it on side so that i can solder the back, but this job its just to big (i don't cleat my seams down just at the front over my drip edge and on the top under the shingle) thanks for any reply
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 06:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bstinelli- I us a locked seam that is 5/8 to a 1/2, you may need to hammer down any and all seam, the heat used in soildering can warp the copper as you soilder, makeing a smaller seam will be one way to leason the warping. Hope this helps.
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Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration (Olde_mohawk_masonry__historic_restoration)
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Post Number: 80
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, July 24, 2009 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Syslib ... The $2400 quote sounds very reasonable. Relining with copper is an easy $150 to $200/foot. And it's not the material, believe it or not. This is super labor intensive work that brings three disciplines together at once: carpentry, slating and sheet metal work. When performed by fully insured, tax-paying firms it is very costly.
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Bstinelli (Bstinelli)
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Posted on Friday, July 24, 2009 - 07:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i'm curious i'm currently working on some box gutters (terne/tin) what do you guys do when some of your seams just don't seem to hammer tight enough? temporarily zip screw them or what i do alot of the time is tap the seam, but this is a pain in the butt...sometimes when i'm doing long verticals they open a little making it a little impossible to sweat i know alot of it is practice just wish i knew some tricks for pounding the seams a little tighter
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whatever you do to the gutters you are going to have to tie it into whatever is on the roof. That is going to be the kicker as far as price goes. Good luck!
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Slate_man (Slate_man)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 04:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Walter Musson
E-mail Address: theslateman@midmaine.com
He's in maine contact him.

I would be able 7500 to 9500 to do what you have list in copper.
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Syslib (Syslib)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Our yankee gutters are leaking so I am looking to reline/repair. After researching online I thought relining with edpm would be the best solution since copper would probably be too much for current budget. Most roofers in my area seemed disinterested and only one outfit actually showed up and submitted a bid--commercial roofers that have done this before. The gutter is in two L sections each with a downspout. One section is approx 20 ft x 10 ft the other section is approx 10 ft by 10 ft (length x length of Ls)so a total of approx 50 feet.

The only bid is $2400 which is double what I was thinking and seemed high just to reline with edpm and put in two new downspouts. If this is accurate quote then copper reline done right would be what 7k+-? What about the old DIY with some cans of liquid edpm? I would rather have it done right by a professional even if the price is at a high end or reasonable. I live in the Bangor ME area and the gutters are half round yankees on a 2 story house.

much thanks, this board has lots of useful info. I really appreciated the pictures of copper relines done right-- but even if I could afford it I do not know if anyone around here even does such work. I did notice one individual who posts here that does slate work in this area so maybe he could.
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Post Number: 191
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 11:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The batten caps are, well... batten caps.

I can't right now but when I get a chance I'll draw a section. Check back in a few days.
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Oghcarpentry (Oghcarpentry)
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Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the pics. The gutter you are working on is very similar to mine. There are a couple of good shots of details that are very useful especially the one that shows the solder joints in the corner and the ones that show the front edge work. Your description also make the pics even more useful.

Is the batten-cap expansion joint that you describe the same as the one shown in the Traditional Roofing Magazine article on expansion joints in box gutters?
www.traditionalroofing.com/TR6_expansion_joints.html
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We ran a drip edge on the outside and then installed flat panels with a 3/4 flange on the back. The flange is cleated and then the box gutter pans are double-locked to that. The flat panels have expansion joints using a batten-cap. The box gutter pans have a standard expansion joint. The seams are either single-locked or riveted and then soldered. The double-lock seam is not soldered except on the corners. The pictures are easier to understand than my explanation though...
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Kwhord (Kwhord)
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Post Number: 186
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 11:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey I'm just now seeing this, you should really start a new thread, this one has like 3 different conversations in it.

I just finished a whole house with a box gutter like you describe.
Check some of the photos here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/kwhord/ClarkeGreenwellResidenceInProgress#
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Oghcarpentry (Oghcarpentry)
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Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 11:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Looking at the gutter in profile, the bottom of the gutter is level, the front edge of the gutter -- where the drip edge would be on a conventional roof -- is pitched in line with the roof (as opposed to level as with most Pittsburgh style box gutters). So looking from the gable end, the gutter is fully in-line with the roof profile - as opposed to having a change in pitch between the roofline and the outer edge of the box gutter.

I was wondering about the best method of attaching the liner on the drip edge side.

I think that the old timer used gasoline as a solvent and I assume let it evaporate (not that I'm going to try it).
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Old_school (Old_school)
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Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gasoline? That would be interesting when you put the heat or flame to it! FLUX!! or Ruby fluid. If it is older copper you could use an abrasive cloth or light sand paper to rough it up and to clean it off. That makes it easier to get the solder to hold.

Are you saying the the bottom of your gutter is pitched at a 45 degree angle like the roof? If so, how is the downspout attached. Go to classicgutters.com to see if they have anything you can use.
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Oghcarpentry (Oghcarpentry)
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Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 09:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry. I should have been clearer.

I'm looking for an idea of how to install box gutter lining without nailing the front edge. Seems like this could be done several different ways with different shaped drip edge/cleats. I thought a set of pictures was mentioned that showed this detail. Ron from Slateworks gave me some very appreciated info on how he does the front edge but pics and/or any other advice would be appreciated as well.

Here's a description of my gutter in case you all need it in order to point me in the right direction. I'm not sure the type of box gutter on my house but its not typical (for Pittsburgh anyway). The roof pitch is 12:12 and the gutter is on the same plane as the rake line. So in profile the liner is pitched 12:12 toward the outside of the house, and the front edge of the liner (the edge the furthest from the ridge) is thus on a 12:12 pitch as well. Currently the terne liner is nailed to the 1"X that sits on top of the crown. There is a significant drop from the starter course to the trough - about 10" on average. On the outside edge of the box gutter it is about 4" from the trough to the top of the gutter. Hope this description makes sense.

I'll be using 16 oz copper to reline.

I am also interested in advice/details/pics on drop tubes and corner bending/fabrication techniques.

Also, an old-timer told me that prior to soldering I should use gasoline to clean the areas that will be soldered. Has anyone heard of this technique?
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Walter_musson (Walter_musson)
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Post Number: 151
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kevin,
I'm not sure to what it is you're referring to ?
Tell me a bit more and I bet Liam , Kurtis or myself can help you out.
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Oghcarpentry (Oghcarpentry)
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Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 06:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Walter,
Are pictures available of the cleated front edge?
thanks.
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Steve T
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 07:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have an up coming project that requires replacing built in gutters. This will be my first time but I am good with copper and working with metal How should I charge? One is a flat run and the other is cut up good. Any tips on how to do would be great
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Spencer P.
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve,

There really is alot of information needed to tell how much to charge and installation of new gutters. First how long is the straight run, any expansion joints needed? Next, on (what you say) cut up good, corners, how many? Drains? Every time you have to join pans they should be locked, clipped (like flat pan) and soldered. Next, are you installing into pans a flat facia drip cover or installing drip edge and locking into it? If on slate or tile roof I would reccommend 20oz. copper. Also end caps or wall butts? You should start at low point (at drops) and work away from it to allow pans to lock together properly so water flows with lock(s) and not against them. List this info so you may get more accurate info and price help. Spencer P.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve,
Your first gutter lining job will be a learning experience,so prices others charge really won't help you a great deal-they'll have familiarity with the work cause it's been repeated numerous times in their careers.
When I'm going to tackle a new endeavor I try to figure all materials needed and price them,then add whatever markup you feel is customary or fair.I then try to figure how many days I'll need to complete the work,even though it's kind of a guess since it's new to me.You know what labor rate you need per hour for you and helpers,so multiply that by the expected time .
Like Spencer said there are too many variables to just give you a per foot price.
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STEVE T
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SPENCER,

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY PANS? JUST THE COPPER BEING FOLDED INTO A BOX SHAPE. I WOULD MAKE END CAPS. THE BACK IS A 40 FOOT STRIAGHT RUN. THE FRONT HAS TO DOMERS THAT ARE BUILT IN THE OUTSIDE WALL OF THE HOUSE FROM THE GROUND UP. EACH ONE HAVING THREE SIDES.I KNOW HOW TO FLAT LOCK. bUT HOW DO YOU DO AN EXPANSION JOINT. WHY DOES'T ANY ONE HAVE WORKSHOPS TO TEACH THIS STUFF?? bY TAKING THE OLD ONE OUT WILL IT BE EASIER TO SEE TO BUILD A NEW ONE?? WALTER MAYBE I WILL COME TO MAINE AND PAY YOU TO BE MY TEACHER?? LOL
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admin
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'll try to get some photos up on this web site soon of some expansion joints we put in last year when we replaced 200 feet of box gutter on a house we reslated.

I have seen a number of new box gutter installations that were done poorly. One is in litigation - bigtime (Florida). The main problem has been the joints and the soldering. It doesn't matter how well the metal is formed - if it's not soldered correctly and adequately the joints will leak. There are two ways to do it: 1) lock seam and solder and 2) flat seam/rivet and solder. Spencer does the lock seam, which is the traditional way. I only know the flat seam method at this point in time, but hope that Spencer or Walter will teach us the lock seam at an SRCA (http://www.slateroofers.org/) conference one of these days.

The photos I put up on this site will be the flat seam/rivet method.

In any case, the seams must be either fully locked, or fully lapped and riveted every inch. The rivets should have NO STEEL WHATSOEVER, including the mandrel, even if the head is copper. It's best to pre-tin the joints, but not critical. We wire brush the joints with a brass wire wheel on a cordless drill, then flux and solder, making sure the solder iron is hot enough that the solder fully sweats into the joint. We do a pass over with the solder to fill the low side of the lap joint, then another pass to sweat the joint, then another pass to cover the joint with enough solder to make the joint disappear.

The vertical joints are the most difficult and require some practice. Practice in your shop or garage beforehand. There is a useful article by Barry Smith about soldering vertical joints in our Traditional Roofing Magazine (http://www.traditionalroofing.com/TR3-vertical-soldering.html)

Joe Jenkins
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Walter Musson
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 03:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve,
I wished I had time to come down and work with you.
I've got two big projects going that will take several months,but if you have others in the future maybe I could come down and help.
I'm sending out a Shutterfly album to you this morning.
Best regards Walter
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Steve T.
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Walter,

Got the pictures, It must be nice working with monson all the time I love that slate it seems perfect.Yes those look like the same type of gutters.Why did you punch the little wholes in the copper? to get the bend did you make a few little bends. Also your lock strip is just like a piece of drip edge? Why not make the gutter a few pieces on the ground and then put it in? Is all that holds the gutter in the lock strip and the metal under the roof?

Have you seen the new solderless gutter coming from Germany. from americraft they also sell a how to solder video.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 04:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve,
I make a narrow strip as a template for the bends,then transfer that to the three foot sheets of 20 oz. copper.The punch holes are my bend marks to form it to the round bottom.I use a 1"x1" strip of copper nailed with 1" copper box nails to the front of the wooden gutter.The front edge is locked to the lock strip and is held by the gutters shape too.I nail the underlying sheet on the riser board just above the wooden gutter,and then nail it at the top and cover 4" or so with Grace and slate.Notice my lath spacer is under the copper-no chance of rot.
I make up 8' sheets and install and solder once the woodwork is completed.
I'd be very interested in the German stuff if you have a link.
I still need to get some red and green 7" x 12" slate from you this Spring.
Yes Monson and Brownville are a treat to work with on a daily basis.
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Barry Smith
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Walter,
I'd love to see those pictures you guys are talking about. I've been finding my way with built-in gutters for a few years now, but there's always more to learn.
Thanks, Barry
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Walter Musson
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 05:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Barry,
I'll send them along this afternoon when I get back from work ,your e- mail is a link above on your post.
Thanks for asking.
Best regards,
Walter
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Barry Smith
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Walter,
That's my first introduction to Shutterfly. I just bought a digital camera and so I signed up for an account already.

That looks like real nice work. We don't have boston style gutters around here (Erie, Pa.), though we do have "yankee gutters". On those, there is a triangular board (4x4 cut diagonally) which is nailed to the roof about 2-3 courses up to form the front of the gutter. The roof forms the back of the gutter. Then this is lined with metal. Most of the roofs like this have soft pennsylvania black slate which is on its last legs, so I haven't really done too many of them.

I have installed a few hundred feet of built in gutter that was similar to what you showed in the picture, only boxier, instead of a round trough.

I like the narrow template strip idea. I'll try it out. I have always drawn two profile views of the section I was going to form, and then written in the measurements for the bends on the left and right sides of the gutter section. Then I make my marks on the metal with a red sharpie, one bend at a time.
Thanks again.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 06:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Barry,
In Maine we don't have any gutters like you do,possibly because of a concern for back up issues,not trapping snow and ice on the roof .We do have some flat bottom gutters that are built up wood like you describe,except they are always attached to the soffit and fascia assembly,so that the outboard edge can be lower than the roof projection-so snow can slide over without catching.That's only in theory though,since after several storms they do fill up and block more snow and ice.
Local custom and the builders traditions from their homelands probably dictated the differing styles from region to region.
I think Shutterfly is great!I've got lots of albums illustrating different facets of my work to send to clients to convince them why my quote is valid for their situation.
Thanks for the kind words.
Walter
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steve2
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've read these posts, and I don't seem to hear enough about the considerations for expansion and contraction. If you, as one poster suggests, cleat the seams on the ends of your gutter lining sections before locking and soldering, you will have committed the same NO-NO as nailing--- the free movement of the monolitic gutter lining will be stopped. These gutter linings MUST be free to move along their lengths so that the expansion and contraction of the lining can get to the expansion joint. ANYTHING that stops this will cause the soldered joints to fail over time. This can be any nails that pierce the lining, cleats on the ends, even the lack of a rosin paper slip sheet can cause the copper to adhere to the felt underlayment and bind up.
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Spencer P.
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 06:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes you must install red rosin paper, always under copper. We cleat (we call them clips) the tops of the pans and lock and crimp front edge to a pre-installed copper drip edging. With the bends in the gutter should support the seams, if big we have cleated (clipped) the seams, bottom one of course, allowing the cleat (clip) alittle room for expansion, much like a flat seam copper roof. There is never a comparison to nailing directly to roof decking and cleating (clipping). the cleat (clip) will always allow the copper to expand and contract. Once you've done some of these you will find your way of doing it, your just getting the just of it from everyone else. But, we always cleat (clip) the pans in, we never pop riviot. Then we (IRON) solder the seams. That's just the way my father taught me and the way he was taught in 1946. If you tear out enough of these type gutter systems you'll always find it cleated (clipped) unless it's been done in the last 20-25yrs. and your already redoing one. One other thing we always use ring shank copper nails to secure all our cleats (clips), less chance of pulling out. Oh yea, your right solder joints do fail over time, if soldered with an IRON over a long, long time if with a torch they fail much quicker. For two reasons: 1) the iron draws so much heat and pulls the solder deep into the lock, irons are hotter than a torch. 2) Everyone, not just you but me too, is afraid to expose an open flame on a roof for too long, so your soldered joint suffers for our worries. Look at how many torch down roofs leaked and now everyone wants to install EPDM on flat areas. Why? they feel secure and they do a great job gluing down the rubber roof. Using a torch to seal your roof on the other hand, everyone worries. Anyone starting out or expanding into this type of work should first, know what they are getting into and second practice, practice and pratice some more with Irons. learning what size iron is good for what? I practiced with IRONS every chance I got, I still do in the shop (IF NOT TOO BUSY) during the winter months. We are no differant than any other professionals---it takes practice...Spencer P.
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steve2
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The fact of the matter is that I've done litterly a mile or more of these built-in gutters over the last 20+ years. The point I'm trying to make is that a ten foot piece of copper will grow in length ~ 1/8 to 3/16 inches with a change of 100F. If one solders 4 or 5 pieces together, as far as nature is concerned it becomes one long piece. The end result is that over the entire length it will expand 5/8 to 1 inch. No cleat in the transverse seam will allow the gutter to move that much. One must allow the expansion to get to the expansion joint unimpeaded or suffer the consequences. The real consideration for material thickness in copper lined built-ins is for the heavier material to have the columnar strength to push the accumulated expansion all the way along it's length without buckleing. One must remember that when you take apart old work of this nature, you find it is often some type of ferrous metal (galvanized steel, charcoal steel, terne coated) and the sheeties from "back in the day" didn't have the same expansion considerations that one has when using copper. One of the big problems I would encounter when re-doing old work was that because of a lack expansion with ferrous metal linings, the old guys would run the gutters all of the way from the front, down the sides, to the back of the house to an outlet. Not only were there not enough outlets, the slope of the gutter was always running in one direction which didn't make adding expansion joints very easy. As for ring shanked nails, if you've taken the proper precautions to deal with the expansion and contraction of your installation, you shouldn't have much stress on the cleats. The copper should be sliding in the cleat. Ring shank nails by the way are the absolute WORST for slate applications (as anyone who has had the misfortune to have to repair a roof installed with them will tell you). Lastly, IMHO, there is nothing that solders better that a pair of well tinned irons of the correct size. Nothing draws solder as quickly and as well as soldering irons. That is certainly one area where the old tech still rules!
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Spencer P.
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 04:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your right ring shank nails are the worst for slate application, not for nailing cleats (clips) Did you actually read I wrote we use ring shank nails to secure our cleats (clips). Also sounds to me your trying to justify either nailing or pop rivioting seams and if that is your way of doing it than so be it, I stated this is the way my father had learned and the way he taught me. Also, If you read what I wrote I stated we cleat (clip) the top only on big (large) gutters have we cleated (clipped) the ends (i said we have on BIG which I mean width not length cleated (clipped) the ends). And like you we have also installed MILES of these built in gutters all cleated (clipped) with expansion joints ( i've even got into discussions and e-mailed drawings of expansion joints to Joe and i think, i maybe wrong but, Joe even tried an expansion joint like the one i sent (faxed) a drawing to him.)With out a failure in the system. And yes irons are the best and cleating (clipping) is too. The only thing wrong with cleating (clipping) is it takes time and patience to perform. Which I do not mind giving my customers. But, it was the way I was taught, the only way my father would allow one to be done on one of his jobs. When we discuss something on this forum it's not who is right or wrong but, the way we each practice our work and it doesn't (by any means) mean that anyone elses is wrong or right, it just states the way we each do it to give ideas to try and maybe better our work or not--just ideas. My company cleats (clips) all copper (bent into any type of pan) fabricated to be joined together. THATS US... And we will continue to do so, as long as we're doing this type of work. You stated you've done alot of this work , then when you've torn out these types of gutter systems what was the way they where installed? Cleated (clipped) or pop rivioted? If they where cleated (clipped) more than likely you replaced it because the metal was flat out worn out. When the metal (copper) keeps expanding and contracting (as you say 5/8" to 1") POP RIVIOTS will keep working loose, and over time gutter failure will happen. And that is only what i've seen. Again everyone all I state on these box gutter forums is we,as a company cleat (clip) all our pans as we do on any fabrication of metal pans to be joined together. I'm only trying to help educate not initiate an argument of rights and wrongs. Just like teachers you teach what you've been taught and that is what I try to do. And thru the YEARS and YEARS of doing this (and when I was young watching my father) we cleat (clip) and when you take out one of these box gutter systems that is the way it was done. I've seen more failures with pop riviots than with the cleat (clip) system and as a company owner I like to go what works for us, over the LONG haul. No call backs thats what I'm talkin about... Spencer P.
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steve2
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Spencer, don't get your dander up. First of all if you'll read my post again, no where will you find any mention of pop rivets.I don't like them and use them only ocasionally. I'm not putting down the way you or anyone else does what you do. Keep on with it. Pop rivets! The riveting I do is only in the fabrication of corners where I have to strengthen a diagonal seam which is lapped, riveted and soldered and those rivets will be solid rivets peened over just as your daddy probably did it before the advent of the blind rivet. All other seams will be locked and soldered. Also cleats along the top and locked around the dripedge in the front. I'm only trying to keep someone who is learning from making the mistake of doing otherwise nice work that is unable to come and go the way it needs to for a long life. On small jobs with short lengths of guttrer you can get away with it, but if you have 30'-40' or longer sections, you had better let that stuff move. Cleats on the transverse seams keep the gutter from being able to move along it's length to the expansion joint. It is as simple as that.

As to the other stuff about cleats or clips or whatever you would like to call them-of course I use them, every sheet metal man worth his stuff uses them. Especially with copper. Why? Do you nail your valleys along the edges or do you cleat them on the sides and nail only at the top (as per SCMACNA specs)? Why? Expansion and contraction is the name of the game when using copper or terne coated stainless steel.
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admin
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Allow me to throw a monkey wrench in here. Valleys don't need cleated unless they are soldered. If they're overlapped rather than soldered, they can be nailed along the edges without problems. Although SMACNA and other publications illustrate only cleated valleys, most roofers of old did not cleat their valleys when they installed them. In fact, most roofers of old completely ignored the publications that are being circulated today as proof of old-time craftsmanship, such as the book, Slate Roofs from 1926, which is full of errors.

Of the miles of valleys we have replaced, the 1% that were cleated wore out just as fast and for the same reason as the 99% that were nailed along the edges -- corrosion of the metal (including copper), not anything related to expansion and contraction.

We do no soldering on valleys when we install them. We overlap the ends and nail the edges, just like the miles of 90 year old valleys we have replaced. All of the valleys I have replaced over the past decades have been re-installed with primarily copper or stainless steel (I did use some aluminum at one time - mostly .040").

The best place to find information on how to do things is to see it written in the successful (or not) work of craftsmen long dead. They have left the information for us to decipher when we take apart their work of a century ago and put it back together again. If what they did is tried and proven, if it worked, then it should be imitated today, with whatever improvements (such as metal quality) we can manage.

Cleated valleys are fine, but they are not necessary -- unless the valley sections are soldered together into one monolithic chunk. Then, one must allow for expansion and contraction to take the stress off the solder joints. Otherwise the valley edges can simply be nailed, and I am quite certain of this, having seen literally miles of valley installed in this manner a century ago with good success. I'm sure that anyone who does slate roof restoration has also seen the success of nailed, unsoldered valleys.

Joe
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Spencer P.
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 08:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We cleat (clip) our valley's about 90% of the time and 100% of the time when we are joing into other fabricated metals, like ice slides, crickets and splash ways and things of that nature. Where we don't cleat (clip) is on the small 4', 3', 2' or lesser valley's why we just never seen a reason for that small of a valley.
And this is all a matter of preference and who your teacher was. I do things the way my father and brother-older, done things and that's how they showed me so it's so deeply instilled in me it's just the way we do it. Not that either way is a written right or wrong it's just how we each acheive the same goal- a high end profeesional well crafted job. I do believe we all do that or we would not have compassion for these topics. But I will always try to get involved in these sorts of discussions because I believe we all have something to give back to each other and slate roof beginners. I LOVE SLATE ROOFING AND EVERYTHING THAT GOES OR COMES WITH IT, IT HAS BEEN VERY GOOD TO ME AND MY FAMILY. With that said I'm happy all of us use this forum to to share ideas, methods and information. Spencer P.
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SteveT
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What is the SMACNA?
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steve2
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SMACNA is a book of drawings and specifications put out by the Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning Contractors National Association. It contains detailed drawings of just about every roofing sheet metal application commonly found. It is not the absoloute authority or "bible" any more than any other publication is. However, and it is a big however, it is the generally accepted reference specification used as a benchmark in most contract roofing work. If you do your work according to the SMACNA specifications, you will be on sound legal ground as well as doing pretty sound work. Another recognized manual is put out by the Copper Development Association and it is called "Copper and Common Sense". But remember that NO book is going to serve for all. Read alot, pay attention to what you take apart, stay abreast of developments and keep an open mind. Know that the most important tool you bring to the job is your mind.
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slateworks
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, It is Sheet Metal Air Conditioning National Association..Just type the letters SMACNA into your Home page internet search site and it will come up if you need more info...I just installed a Lead coated copper gutter,the area we had to cover required 3'wide plus a 16" wide cap to cover the stone cap -we used 8'long sheets -we did not cleat the vertical 1/2" locked seams-our metal averaged 8" up the front wall,16"on the base & 10" up the roof, with a 2" bend to sit on top of the stone cap we then folded our 1/2" lock to accept our cap piece which also had a 1/2" lock we did cleat the horizontal locked seams ,We also bent a 1/2" lock seam on the edge of the metal that would be under our roofing material,to this we added a 6"wide lock seam the entire length of gutter lining and nailed this piece in place so we did not penetrate the free floating gutter lining ,this area is 28'long we left about 1/2"space on each end,we installed rosin paper under all the metal.We did not solder the seam that would be under our roofing material,hoping this would help metal move more freely,plus we were required to install IWS to the 6" extension we added to the back edge of gutter lining.We did solder the lock joint on top of the stone wall,there are no fasteners in our 16" cap piece,we bent it to fit completly over the stone cap with a 3/4" return and a 1/2" drip edge that fit under the front lip so metal has no chance of blowing off(Hopefully?),After reading the posts above and others I have tried to install our metal gutters with few cleats as possible(meaning vertical seams).I have wondered though when you solder any cleated seam that some part of the cleat is also soldered to the locked seam,which would not allow the metal to move freely ,so I may start to slot my cleats to allow for expansion & contraction? Just wondering what others think? I have not cut apart any of our soldered seams at the cleated area think I will try it tomorrow just to see if the solder is adhering to any part of the cleat,Let you know what happens. Take care, Ron
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Peter
Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh well if wrenches are being thrown LOL, here's another.

I never allow a nail in the side of the valleys and always fold a water check each side, the valley is held in place by clips folded over the water check and fixed to the valley board.

I also put a water check (fold) on the under side of the overlaps regardless of the slope.

Joe has his way based on his local experience as my way is based on my local experience, both are probably dictated by the different weather conditions.

In a similar way Ron gets to use lead coated copper, I have never seen lead coated copper, we use either lead or copper.

I have stripped out both metals less than ten years old because they were nailed at the sides preventing expansion and contraction that is natural to the metals.

The stress imposed caused the metal to split in line with the nails, also we use very little solder, most of our joints are welted.

This thread is a great read, some very interesting methods being discussed.

Kind Regards,

Peter Crawley, M.I.o.R.

www.crawleyroofing.com
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steve2
Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A fine point Peter. Aside from never nailing "inside" of the work, a hemmed and cleated valley provides that water check you mentioned. It seems to become even more important when tying together roofs of different pitches, where for instance one might find a shallow pitched gable dormer at the bottom of a steeply pitched roof. W valleys also help keep the water from shooting across and under the other side of the valley although W valleys might not be appropriate for some period restoration work.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 05:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think that the clip or cleat method restains the coppers movement to some degree too.If you cleat an 8' valley sheet 5 or 6 times per side,what are the chances that they are not pinching and some rough edges hanging up?You need to be able to hold the sheet firmly enough to have it stay placed,yet all cleats would act in unison to let it freely slide when heat started to expand it.Doesn't the heat expand it across the valley too and help to bind the cleats?
Having said that,I'm in Maine where summers are too scorching.I've also replaced a lot of valleys and have almost never removed one that was cleated.I've never seen an instance where nailing thru the uppermost edge translated into failure.
What does kill copper sheet,and you have all seen it,is "erosion corrosion" where the soft copper is worn away thru drip action off the cut valley slates.Therefore I cut my valley slates on the front side to promote a smoother flow off the stone onto the copper.When it's raining hard some time watch how the waters action works on valley metal.
The copper might have a 60 to 70 year life expectancy before it develops worn thru spots due to waters action and will need help.
I do not cleat my valleys and have never had a problem or callback yet on both new and repair work.I do solder the bottoms when they join a wide apron or gutter lining at the eaves,but simply overlap succeeding sheets up the roof.
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admin
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think "welting" in *Ireland* is the same as soldering here in the US, isn't it? I'm not sure, but soldering in the US utilizes lead/tin or just tin solder bars that are melted by using a copper soldering iron and sweated into the sheet metal joint. Does that describe "welting" in Ireland?

Regarding the "water stop" on the inside edges of the valley copper, if water is making its way to the inside edge of any valley I have installed, then I installed it incorrectly. The inside edge of valley copper should be dry and stay dry at all times and should have no need to stop water, according to my experience.

99+% of the valleys installed on slate roofs in western PA had no folded edges whatsoever. We are still replacing original valleys on 100 year old slate roofs. They lasted that long because they were kept painted. The edge nailing and lack of edge fold had no adverse effect on their longevity.

Joe
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Peter
Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Joe,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

We use very little solder on any of the jobs except repairs, sad to say but my irons are a sad looking set of tools because they are not used enough.

We use the "term" welted joints on both single and double lock seams, single lock on sloping valleys and double lock on parapet or valleys between double apex roofs and copper roofs.

I think the big difference regarding the need for water checks comes from the fact that most of the valleys you fit are W shaped.

The shape in the valley slows the water and it doesn't climb the opposite sides in heavy rain.

I think you are referring to sheet metal / steel vallys that were painted ? we don't paint the copper and the valleys we are replacing are usually lead.

Our valleys are V shaped so the water could overflow the sides in heavy rain without water checks on the sides.

We keep the parapet and centre valleys to within 20 square feet and step the joints on average two inches.

Very often we will have a standing seam in the centre of the valley with clips in the standing seam to prevent the copper from being stressed by wind uplift.

Just different methods for different weather conditions I guess.

Kind Regards,

Peter Crawley, M.I.o.R.

www.crawleyroofing.com
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Barry Smith
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Speaking of solder, I have seen vertical soldered seams on copper work in New Jersey where the solder hadn't run at all. It looked like it must have been thicker when melted than the 50/50 lead/tin solder that I've been using. Is that maybe the tin solder that you are refering to Joe?
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admin
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe they did the soldering off the roof and then installed the gutter. They could have laid the gutter on its side and soldered the "vertical" joint.

The tin solder seems to melt pretty much like the tin/lead solder. It runs when molten.

Joe
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mike hamel
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I have stripped out both metals less than ten years old because they were nailed at the sides preventing expansion and contraction that is natural to the metals.

The stress imposed caused the metal to split in line with the nails, also we use very little solder, most of our joints are welted."

If this really is a problem, then why doing you punch a 'slotted oval hole' using aluminum/vinyl sideing tool -- with the nail NOT nailed tight.
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Spencer P.
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 03:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What is welted joints? I have heard the term or should I say the term used but just took it for granted it was a fancy way of saying soldered. Next what are you asking what the problem is nailed joints, welted (what ever that is) and what are you trying to say about slotted oval hole using a siding tool? Would be more than happy to assist you in your quest to learn about built in gutters but first I need to understand your questions or statements your making. Spencer P.

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