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Walter Musson
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Looks like the postings are showing up in just the reverse of before.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hanging K style gutters from above whether alum. or copper is the least desirable way to install.
If you have a flat fascia,then hidden hangers with screws that support the front and back is a much cleaner way to go.There is no slate work required,hence no chance for roof leakage due to the install.
I've got 80' of it to put up Thurs. and Fri.,using 3" round Corr. copper downspouts.
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tmccdon
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

are you saying i should have noticed the letter k?
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Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

just looked at a sea green slate roof with some problems, mostly age related,I cringed when I saw 5k aluminum gutters nailed right thru slate,caulk over nails and joints,ugleee!!,naturally they are not draining properly.Make sure gutters are correctly installed on your slate roof.
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Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 06:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

well you should have
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Dan Riefstahl
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 11:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a 1922 arts and crafts style house with 10/12 pitch roof. I am having a yankee gutter replaced that is 45 feet long. He is using wood and all copper and soldering and riveting everything. He is also replacing between 10 and 20 slates. I have PA gray. Any ideas? How much is the average for a linear foot of yankee installed? I live in Erie, PA.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the copper just line the gutter or is it a wider sheet which forms an apron?Is he removing slate to bond the copper back onto the deck and then re-shingling?Is the Boston pattern gutter 4x5 or 4x6 ?What will the the downspout drops be made of,and who is installing the spouting?Is the gutter one straight run with just two ends,or are there miters?
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slateworks
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, Am about to install copper flat lock roof,7' x 14'..We are going to use 18" x 24" panels,I solder with a plumbers torch(actylene) and have been fluxing seams with Stay cleans paste flux,Have had good success with this.We keep the copper clean and dry until installation..I am looking for feedback from more experienced Tinners on how others solder? - and what do you put under flat lock?? 30# felt and rosin paper? In what order? ect..Just looking for feed back..Thanks , Ron Slateworks - bcrklk@zoominternet.net.
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Joe Jenkins
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 08:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Ron,

First a big warning - open torch soldering is notorious for catching buildings on fire. Once the felt underneath starts smoldering, you can't put it out. It will smolder unseen sometimes until hours later the building fills with smoke and you're back up on the roof at 3 am trying to put it out. You should be using a soldering outfit such as we sell here at http://www.jenkinsslate.com/store_solder.html.. Such an outfit is safe and solders much faster than standard soldering irons.

Secondly, the felt goes down first, then the rosin paper so that the copper is in contact with the rosin paper.

We also sell solder, flux, sal ammoniac, copper and stainless rivets, etc.
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slateworks
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Joe, I also need a new slate cutter.I made this decision after I used a cutter that was 4 or 5 years old compared to the 60+ year old one I have been using,The cutting edge is gone,guess I could try to sharpen it??(HA)I will give you a call and try to come up some evening next week..Hope all is well. Ron .. Yeah I have worried about the open flame,,Irons are safer, I do have a propane iron, Have never tried it,Guess I will on this roof..I need some other supplies.. Also I have an old 1/2 round hand powered gutter machine that makes 10' lenghts,comes with the 4-5-&6" rolls,I have a few pcs. that were made on it and they look just like the ones you buy,If you know of anyone interested let me know..thanks.
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Joe Jenkins
Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That reminds me, the new slate cutters patterned after the old Pearson cutters (which is what I use) are expected to be available any day now. Otherwise, we have the Stortz cutters and all the cutters on this web site - all in stock.
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darren bessey
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 08:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good Day All:

Just recently bought a 1902 home with a slate roof and am confused about the nature of two fo the valleys. (Home has four valleys in total) On two of the valleys, as you approach the eavestrough, the slate has been "cut away" from the valley to make an inverted "V" shape of copper (no slate on copper)

Why would someone do this? I haven't seen many slate roofs, but the few contractors around who "do" slate, have never seen this before.

I have experienced some ice damming in these valleys, and wonder if thats why the slate was removed. Should I put the slate back? (Oh, the copper is leaking, so I am going to have to have it replaced anyways.....

Just wondering if anyone has seen this sort of thing and has a suggestion/explanation???

Oh, and for the record, I am being quote $3000 cdn for the replacement of the metal and putting the old slate back down. I would estimate the valley to be 25 to 30 feet...kinda expensive quote I suppose.....then again, there's a ton more copper work involved in this one because of the inverted V pattern at the base.....no tar on slates...tar on copper...

thanks

Darren Bessey
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Walter Musson
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darren,
Yes most likely there were back up issues or the slater anticipated there might be,so he widened out the valley near the eaves;a fairly common practice in the colder climates.If you have experienced leakage then by all means re do the valley without bringing the slates back down,the copper acts as an impermeable barrier to water flowing back up under the slates in Winter.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron,
If you already own a B tank for acetylene you can get a heated iron from ASCO in New Jersey that hooks to your tank.Acetylene burns hotter than propane and will therefore keep an iron hotter for copper and lead coated work.I've had both and the B tank set up works really super.
Some people I know just use a torch,but Joe's right it's unsafe-similar to Russian roulette.
I like going home and not worrying about fire on a building I'm working on.
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slateworks
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 06:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Walter, Thanks-I do have a heated iron ,Have not tried to use it yet,I am going to on this job,Once I bought the plumbers torch it has worked so well to maintain consistent heat and is a labor saver,but is dangerous to use on the older houses.What do you use to clean your seams? do you pre-tin?After the iron is tinned do you lay the iron on the top of hem to heat that area to draw solder in to seam-Or on the edge of seam where the to panels meet ect??Do you stitch flat lock or just let if flow ? Any feedback would help..Thanks Ron
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Walter Musson
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron,
I use La Co flux,which might not be available in your area so you might try a plumbing supply house.I heat the seam to draw the solder into the joint,but I don't stich that type of seam.I do stich any rivetted seam to look like a zipper,than heat along the edge to make a nice neat edge that water has a hard time to penetrate.
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Cameron Criddle
Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe,
I am a roofing contractor in Spokane,WA and we are bidding our first slate job. We were wondering if you had any tips as far as bidding is concerned. I would greatly appreciate any tips you had. Price is a major concern for these people, so I want to be in the right ballpark. Thanks for your input.
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Walter
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 05:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are you doing repairs or a new installation?
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John Sprung
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 07:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ditto on no flame in contact with the roof. Soldering coppers are the only safe way to go. I have "Ruby Red" flux from N.B. Handy in Roanoake, VA. I also got my copper there, $1.47/lb vs. $2.00 - $2.25 from local vendors in Los Angeles.


-- J.S.
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Darren
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wondering if I am the victim of a bait and switch here. I had a reputable slate guy come and "quote" the job of removing and replacing a valley. Due to the old "we don't know what we are getting ourselves into until we get started" syndrome (which is true) I agreed on time and material and we would discuss the progress each day

The valley is to be done in galvanized. It is 22 feet long it widens out to a V at the end which is about 12 feet wide in total . I also wanted pans placed along the edge of the roof to the ridge. The water tends to back up under the slates there..and the pans are there to stop the water ingress.

He purchased a total of 8 pans about 3 foot square to do that job and the valley and some more galvanized to make the vee shape. He removed four rows of slates to make room for the pans.

He got to removing the valley and discovered that there are THREE valleys already in place. The orginal one that was steel, a second one made of copper and the third one made of galvanized. He also discovered two pieces of wood, approx 7" wide by 1" thick by five feet long that had been water damaged and he replaced them.

His original estimate was about $2000-$2300. He is now saying that due to the fact that there are three layers of metal to be removed..and that there is more labour due to that and the wood and ..well whatever we run into next, his estimate has now gone to $4000.

There is a dormer in the valley also and he is putting galvanized up the side of the dormer (valley side) and putting slate on there.

He is also making up an aluminum piece to cover the fascia (about 8 feet long) to seal the fascia to the pans to make that stretch water tight (and to save me from having to paint that ever again)

Does this new estimate seem reasonable? He has been working for two days and is over half done... one man...half time assistant

Darren
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admin
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 09:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We always bid valley work by the lineal foot, never by the hour. We never use galvanized metal, only copper or stainless steel. Our costs for residential work start at about $50/foot (20 ounce copper), sometimes less if it's a low income household, and up to $100/ft or more for institutional work (either 20 ounce copper or stainless steel). We just replaced a 15 foot valley on a house using 20 ounce copper, for example, and it took 4 hours for two men. I charged the lady $650 because she was low income and her roof was leaking like a sieve.

This summer we also replaced 80' of valley on a college chapel, graduated, mixed VT slate, using stainless steel flashing, requiring pipe scaffolding, and charged $100/ft, installed. It took 4 days for two men.

We have replaced literally miles of valleys on slate roofs and can do it with our eyes closed.
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admin
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

PS: all messages signed "admin" are from Joe Jenkins. It's a computer quirk.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darren,If he is working on a T and M basis you should be able to know exactly how much you have spent thus far.Material costs plus mark up then hours spent by each man times their rate per hour.
Once the slate is removed from the sides of the valley it only requires a little extra time to remove the two extra layers of metal so thats not a big ticket item.Board replacement takes a little longer but still isn't a huge expense.If he is working steadily and doing reasonable work at a fair rate of pay then you are doing o.k. I'd say.His estimate sounds like only a guess if you're doing T and M.
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Darren
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well then Joe, come on up to Canada...you charge me in US dollars and I would still be ahead....

Kudos for your charges to the lady of lesser means. Very admirable to see people taking that approach. Rare these days. I used to have a financial adviser that would refund his fees if he screwed up on his advice.....also somewhat rare. He, unfortunately, moved away to be with family.

darren
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admin
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way, the reason we never charge by-the-hour is because, if we did, the better we got at it, the less money we'd make (which is opposite of what should happen). For example, a relatively inexperienced roof mechanic might replace valleys at 2 feet per hour. Once he has experience, he can do it at 4 feet per hour. So, as he becomes more experienced, either his wage has to double to be paid the same amount for the same work, or he has to charge by the foot and make the same amount of money in half the time. By-the-foot charges give a roof mechanic incentive to develop efficiency. I am always suspicious of hourly contractors. They have a strong incentive to take as much time as possible to get the job done.

Joe Jenkins

PS: although I give price breaks to low income people, the wealthy have to make up for it ;-)
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Jim K
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joe Jenkins - A.K.A. Peter Pan . . . ;~)

Jim K
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admin
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 10:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think you mean Robin Hood.
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Jim K
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yep, I did. Either way, I just hope you don't go running around on roof tops in green tights!

;~)

Jim K
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Anonymous
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 08:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, I have a two story bungalow house in Maryland and recently had a local slate roofer come out to give me an estimate for new copper gutters. The quote given was $3270.00 for 115 feet of half-round copper gutter, complete with 76 feet of 3" spouting. There are a total of 8 gutters on the house, I think 4 on the 2nd floor.

He also quoted me $1840.00 for the k style aluminum gutter in 5".

Does this sound reasonable?

Also, I have dormer that protrudes from the main house and has apparently just over "2 squares" of slate on top (none on the sides) that are in disrepair and need to be completely replaced. He hasn't yet given me an estimate for the slate, but stated that I was looking at between $3000 and $4000 to do that kind of job.

Thanks for anyones help.
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admin
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Assuming your gutters are 16 ounce copper, then the price seems reasonable. Here in western PA, a local copper gutter installer would charge $50/ft. of gutter.

On the dormer, does the slate replacement include replacing the valleys as well? If so, then the price seems reasonable.
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Anonymous
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are no valleys to be replaced, Just replacing the slate the top of the protruding dormer, which measures 22ft wide x 11ft and integrates with the main part of the roof at the top. Since there are no valleys, i'm guessing that I should hope for the price to be closer than $3000?

I'm pretty sure the price for the gutters was for 16oz copper.

What do you think about the aluminum gutter price? It seems higher than most that I've heard, but I'm not sure that I am the appropriate judge in this case.

I appreciate any information, as I cannot afford any more overpriced OR shoddy work on my house.
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Anonymous
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, so you're saying an average price for the 115ft of copper gutters could be closer to $6000 in your area? If that is correct, my guy is way lloooww, which I guess could be a good or a bad thing.
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Anonymous
Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well first of all I reccommend 20.5 OZ. copper gutter. Much more durable. Also you don't want anyone too low because the quality of the job will most likely suffer, people in general HATE working for little of nothing. And if they are alot cheaper than what Joe had stated I would be wondering how many of these jobs they have done. Do your research, like you are. Have your gutters last for along time especially if your going the added expense for copper.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why didn't you get a quote for K style gutter in copper as you did for alum.?
You can get a better job of catching the water with a flat backed gutter than you can with half round.
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Anonymous
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Half round gutter is THE BEST, THE BEST for any and all slate roof application. It allows itself the ability to clean itself. Also IF installed correctly the back dosen't make a differance. Oh yea they've only been using half round gutters for a couple hundred years or so. It's also easier to hang (half round) lower than the eves edge to allow the ice and snow to slide over and still catch ALL the water. You want gutters NOT a dam.
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tmccdon
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

its not always possible to install the 5ks,and on many tudors half-round is the only option for asthetics and if no fascia is present,the price on the slate here seems about right, a little over $3000, don't forget there will be a copper flashing at main roof intersection,requiring removal of 2-3 courses of overhead slate.The price on the gutters seems low to me,at less than $20 per foot and with material costing approx $10 per foot it would need to be uncomplicated and easily accessible,if slate has to be removed to facilitate installation of brackets our price is close to $50 per ft as Joe mentionted,for fascia secured brackets 25 -30 per ft.I hope contractor is not planning on nailing thru slate which is a crime!,gutters wont function properly and will prove to be a waste of time and money and become doubly expensive to correct down the road.stay informed
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Walter Musson
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Half round gutter is one choice,but not always the best for every possible situation.
Since the gentleman from Maryland got a quote for alum. K style I must assume there is a flat fascia to mount it to.
If so you can hang it so it doesn't require any slate removal and be lower than the roof plane so it's not in danger of being torn loose from cascading snow and ice.
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tmccdon
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

sorry Walter,I had'nt noticed the k on his posting.
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Joe Jenkins (Admin)
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry Walter, I was trying some changes with the message board layout and reversed the direction of the postings. Now I'm trying to change it back, so we'll see what happens.

Joe
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Pat
Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just had a slate roof company come out and price some work on my 1920s era Boston home. There is substantial leakage in the roof, though it's hard to say exactly where it's coming from because the attic is finished. I suspect the problem is the slate hips, which are spreading apart in places. First, I was told to replace the slate hips with copper because it would be cheaper, would last 50 or so years, and would still look handsome. The price quoted was $1,800 per hip. Each hip is about 30 feet long. That strikes me as awfully expensive per hip length. What do you think?
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Anonymous
Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 04:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Depends, are they removing the slate from the hips? How many hips are you talking about? I don't see a amount mentioned, only how long each hip is. Are they installing pre-made ridge (roll) caps or fabricating new caps for a more uniform fit? Do the hips meet? And if so how are they doing the union, I hope they are soldering. How accessable and steep is the roof? There is alot to factor in when it comes to this type of work and alot of varibles in estimating this type of work. People call us all the time and ask us if we can give them a quote after they describe the roof and their problems. NOBODY CAN OR SHOULD. It is even difficult using pictures to be 100% accurate, nothing beats a site visit. So as for anyone giving you a costs on this job, it would be unfair to you, the contractor who bidded this work and to the blind guy telling you what it should cost.
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Anonymous
Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, I did re-read your post and it does contain that it's $1800.00 per hip and each hip is 30' long. But, still would like to know how many hips there are. I would quess 4 (four) hips total. Still need to know what is being done. GOOD LUCK
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Pat
Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are four hips, but they are only doing two. The other two don't yet show signs of leaking. (Of course, for uniformity, one would want all 4 replaced, but the roofer says do what you can now and then do the others when we can afford it).

They are removing the slate hips and replacing with copper. You have asked good questions that I don't know the answer to, for example about whether they are using roll caps or fabricating new caps and what the pitch of the roof is. The roofer measured the pitch and I thought he said it was a "9," but I don't know what that would refer to. From the naked eye, I would say it is about a 45 degree pitch.

The hips that are being replaced do not meet each other. However, each does meet the ridge line of the roof as well as the two hips that are not being replaced. The ridge has metal flashing that the roofer said might be zinc -- indicating that it would have been installed during the war.

My first, essential question, is whether replacing slate hips with copper hips is a less expensive but authentic alternative to re-slating the hips.

The slate roofer in this case is one of the Raboin brothers -- Thomas Raboin -- who claims to have had a hand in writing the slate roof bible (he didn't specify). Doug Raboin, his brother, is listed in the index.

Thanks for thoughts!
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admin
Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We usually install the new copper ridge roll right over the existing slate hips without removing them. It's much faster, looks good, and works well, although you may have to nail the ridge and caulk the nails (otherwise, fabricate a cleat system). If you remove the existing hip slates, you will probably have to add slate to make up the difference between the width of the original slate ridge and the new copper ridge (the orginal slate ridge being wider that the copper). Or else custom fabricate a copper ridge with sufficient width. We can install 16 ounce copper ridge roll in this fashion for about $20/ft. You can see an example of this on page 169 of the Slate Roof Bible, 2nd edition, bottom photo, using galvanized (painted) "ridge iron" on a mitered hip. We don't use galvanized ridge or hip metal any more, but it is the customary material in this part of the world. We switched to strictly copper or slate hips and ridges years ago and are slowly converting the local residences to copper ridge and hip metal.

Joe Jenkins
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Pat
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for your message. I had asked the contractor originally why not just use copper over the slate hips. His reponse was, "Well then what are you going to nail into? You can't nail into slate." In any event, Tom was adament that it was not the right way to do it.

I'm a little concerned at this point. From a stictly intuitive, layman's point of view, one would suspect that there must be some available method putting copper right over the slate instead of taking them all up, and you confirm that it is indeed possible and much less expensive (about $600 vs. about $1,800 per 30 foot hip). So it seems time to reevaluate our options. So far, though, no one locally has offered the same option you describe.

Your ideas are much appreciated!
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admin
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If we have to nail into the slate, and the slate is inclined to break (such as if it is new slate or a very hard slate), we drill the holes prior to nailing using a 3/16" masonry bit (the metal is first drilled with a standard bit). On older slate roofs, you can punch a pilot hole through the metal and the slates all at once, with a 16 penny nail, then nail the metal with a copper nail. You can also screw the ridge metal on with brass or stainless steel fasteners and use a rubber or neoprene gasket.
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Anonymous
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes you can put the copper ridge over the existing slate hips as joe explained. When I asked the question (in an earlier post) if they (the contractor) was removing the existing slate ridge (I was not suggesting this for or against removal of slate hips) I was just trying to get a handle on what was getting done to try to evaluate cost(s) best as possible. We have done it both ways (installing new copper ridge over existing slate hips and removing slate hips and installing copper ridge) with success both ways. Installing the new copper ridge over existing slate hips should be alittle more IN-expensive than the removing hips. As Joe stated then you get into filling the slate void left behind by removed hips cost goes up. The thing about installing over esxisting slate hips is there is a higher potential for broken slate if not done correctly. First you have a build-up of slate with the hips remaining. What we found works best (if leaving hips) is to pre-drill or pre-punch holes in ridge metal. Then we take a all metal awl/punch (with a sharp point) and at each area we have either pre-drilled or pre-punched we pop (punch) a hole into slate for nails to go into to secure ridge. The awl/punch works the same as punching a hole in the slate with a slate hammer or slate cutter. We use an awl/punch alot. We have found when you try to just beat the copper nail through the slate the nail bends or slate breaks. And since you don't want to take all the slate down to punch the holes the awl/punch works great.
Another question, how bad is the leaking at hips? Why not fix the hips and re-seal the butt line of slate. Did anyone suggest this or price this out for you? Best of luck!
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Walter Musson
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An alternative might be to redo the hips with slate using copper step flashing with each pair during relaying.
If most of the slate caps are salvagable and they quoted to remove them anyway,then labor to relay and step flashings(which could even be aluminum to keep costs down) and copper nails should be less costly than all new copper.
I don't like to put hip copper over slate caps either.A better end result is obtained by removing them first-even though it's not hard to nail thru slate-just leaves a neater looking job.
Get some other quotes ,it sounds high to me too.
Removing the caps on each hip should take no more than an hour for each 30'
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Pat
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Both contractors who came out said you had to remove the slate hips. Maybe they didn't insist unequivocally, but they both said that was the best way to do it, and since I'm a homeowner, not a slater, I didn't really know how to respond. They both also suggested that resealing (they never used this term, but I'm inferring that's what was meant from our conversation) would lead to problems in the long run (essentially that using sealant would make removing slates without breaking them difficult for jobs later). Both clearly had a lot of experience with slate rooves and both offered a 30-year materials and labor guarantee (which would presumably have to be honored by someone of the younger generation in each group). In any event, I'm not disputing their sincerity. But clearly there are alternatives.

As to whether the hip is leaking badly, all I can say is that I have no idea what is leaking, exactly, but clearly I have water on the rafters after rainstorms. Neither of the two contractors actually got up on the roof. Both instead assessed from the ground and offered some thoughts. This is a problem, from my point of view. I'd be spending money for an educated guess as to what is leaking. Both offered completely different ideas on the problem (one said it was the chimney, and maybe the vent pipe, and maybe the ridge; the other seemed to think it was the hip). Neither got up there to take a close look, so I have no confidence at this point they the $4,000+ I'd be spending on either job will do the trick.

I can't inspect closely myself, except with binoculars (which I've done at length), so I can't say whether the slates can be put back in place and sealant reapplied. In short, I'm going to cancel the current contract, get the slate roof bible and read what I can, and then reevaluate.

Thanks!
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Anonymous
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They are correct in their advice to you the ultimate best way to install new ridge copper capping is to remove the old slate hips but, it is also the MOST expensive. We are just giving you some advice on alternatives. Like I mentioned in an earlier post we have done it both ways with great results on both but it is also a $ thing on how much you want to spend. Also like I stated on an earlier post and as Walter has stated what about fixing the existing slate hips?
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Walter Musson
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pat,
If you've got copious amounts of water coming in when it rains then the hips are likely not the cause of all of it.
Water hits the hips and can run both ways away from the hip so it's not usually a source of big leaks.
The chimney and vent stack on the other hand are more apt to let in more water when those flashings fail.
I can't believe that neither slate man accessed the roof to properly determine what the real cause was.Like you said it's just a crap shoot if you don't physically look at the roof up close.
If you were in my area I could redo the hips with copper after removing the slate,reflash the chimney into the roof and replace a stack flashing for what you were quoted for just the hips.
Keep looking!
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Pat
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 10:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for all the really helpful posts.

I'm going get a few more quotes before I do anything, and will ask for three options: repairing the slate hips, copper ridge over the existing slate hips, and copper ridge after removing the slates. And I'm of course going to get opinions on where the leak(s) is/are. One company said it's probably the chimney and vent stack but I suspect the hips too.

Walter, it's very hard for me to assess where the leak is for two reasons: 1) the attic is finished, though there are two crawl spaces; and 2) the attic has blown-in insulation above the finished ceiling, so you can't just go into the crawl spaces and pull back fiberglass wall insulation. When you do that, an endless supply of the the blown-in stuff falls out from above. An expert would be clued into what is leaking by inspecting in the crawl space and on the roof, but as yet no one has done that. That's what I'm going to insist on.

So I am going to start calling around. Boston has enough slate around that there are several companies to try yet.

By the way, I got the Slate Roof Bible out of the library, but it was the first edition and thus didn't have the example Joe referenced on installing copper over the existing slate. I'll check out the 2nd edition as soon as I get a copy.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pat,
Might be a good idea to ask the bidders to take digital pictures of the area of the roof causing problems.
Then you can see what they are seeing if you have them print out or e-mail some photos to you.
I've started carrying a small photo printer with me so I can print 4x6 inch prints while still at the customers house.It's a great help in explaining the cause of the leaks,when most folks don't want to physically access the roof.
Good luck with finding a good slater at a fair price.
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Anonymous
Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone know the average cost of installing 30x30 fixed skylights in a slate roof with a 12x12 pitch? The other contractors will be framing out for the skylight, and the roofer would be required to do the slate removal, and cut through the roof from the top to match the framing on the underside of the roof, and of course dropping the skylight in, and flashing it.
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Walter Musson
Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it just one unit or several?
The cost would be less per unit if there were several being installed.
For one that size on a two story house with decent access you might expect to pay 5 or 6 hundred for a single unit.
Travel and set up time could be spread out over more units if you are doing more,lessening the unit cost some.
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Anonymous
Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It would be a total of eight units, four on each side of a two story church with scaffolding provided up to the roof.

Also, If anyone knows an average price per square of cedar shakes on a one story shack, that would be very helpful. thanks lots
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Walter Musson
Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I were providing labor,fasteners,underlayment to wrap the frames and staging in the roof if they weren't reachable from the eaves staging-I would charge$350 for each one or $2800 total.
My locale is Maine so regional pricing will differ I'm sure.

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